Bad Bad news from my 306

[88scgt]

Well i probaly should have posted this earlier but i didnt. last weekend went home and pulled my engine out of our 86, took the oil pan off to change oil pump(kinda low oil pressure 14 lbs at idle) and sure enough bearing pieces on the pickup. granted there are about 10k of hard miles with numerous trips down the track. broke the engine down to bare block and # 8,7,4,3 and back ttwo mains were badly damaged. the rings, pistons and the cylinder walls looked great. dad took it to glenn sheppard to get the cylinder walls lokked at and check the crank. i dunno the statis yet though. if everything goes the way it should i will go home friday and get it all back together
:banghead:

[QWKSNKE]

that sucks. did the bearings show signs of detonation?

[militarymustang88gt]

showed signs of no oil on the bearings. and the metal in the pan wasnt looking good neither.

[EHardy1971]

Sounds like a broken,or rounded oil pump driveshaft to me! Have you pulled the pump off yet?

[88scgt]

the pump driveshaft is not bent it is a arp driveshaft. i am pretty sure the oil pumpwent bad probally why low oil pressure. well got the news from machine shop and the crank just needs to be polished. the cylinders looked reaaly good but a few of the cylinders had lost the hone. so he is going to hone the cylinders then i will do a total reduild. i think the main reason the pump went out was from running the dog piss out of it for 10k.

[BAD INT]

do not go highvolume on the pump standard melling should be fine.is there some rough spots on the cylinder wall or is the cross hatch not visable?

[EHardy1971]

Probably broke/collapsed the spring for the pressure valve inside the pump.And like Bad Int said,get a standard volume pump,all a high volume one is going to do is rob horsepower! My recommendation would be a standard volume high pressure one!

[Wickd GT]

Probably broke/collapsed the spring for the pressure valve inside the pump.And like Bad Int said,get a standard volume pump,all a high volume one is going to do is rob horsepower! My recommendation would be a standard volume high pressure one!

If you have a stock pan I recomend the standard oil pump. If you have a deep pan, a high volume, I use the FMS high volume pump on mine and the FMS harden steel pump shaft. About the high volume pump robbing hp, that is BS, I have had both of them and did not see any diference going down the track, only I saw was, the standard pump with the deep pan at idle will read low oil pressure, so put back the high volume pump and good oil presure at idle, but this time it is going to be different, I put main bearings King HP 3/4 groove, so it will probably read low oil pressure at idle.

Edgar

[EHardy1971]

About the high volume pump robbing hp, that is BS,

How is that Edgar?,the HV pump is pushing more oil,which creates more parasitic drag on the engine.A HV pump is'nt really needed on a street engine without an oil cooler,etc for the extra oil to go to.Also from what I've read,they tend to pump oil to the top of the heads,and lifter valley faster than it can drain back down to the crankcase,resulting in oil starvation.:think:

[Italian LX]

Also from what I've read,they tend to pump oil to the top of the heads,and lifter valley faster than it can drain back down to the crankcase,resulting in oil starvation.:think:
That highly unlikely.

[Wickd GT]

A high volume pump will sent more oil to the top, and which in a hyr cam is what you want, it is not going to push that much oil at the valve train, but in a solid roller it does push a lot of oil at the top, which is what mine is doing right now, but I have restrictor pushrods, .040" in each one. I shift at 7200rpms on the juice, and going down the track it has 80psi of oil. This last time I took apart the motor, there were no signs of oil starvation, but oil not getting out of the main bearings quick enough, the reason for the 3/4 groove HP bearings. About the the oil pump robbing HP, in a stock car yes, but in a motor like mine I have not seen it, another thing, you do not need an oil cooler with a high volume pump, lotsa people think of that, but the warmer the oil more hp. You want the oil temp at 150-180* when a pass is been done. Depending on the clearences the engine has, that is when the standard of HV pump is decided to use.

Edgar

[EHardy1971]

Ok,I gotcha! I was referring to a stock engine(one set up like yours does need a HV pump).On the oil cooler,I was using that as an example in the fact that you usually need a HV pump when you install an oil cooler,instead of the other way around.

[88scgt]

well i do have a 7 quart pan and i have always used a high volume pump. as for loss of power i dunno the car makes plenty of power. made 550rwhp through a c4. there were no scratches in the cylinder walls just the hone marks gone in a few of the walls. i will be going home this weekend to get it back together. i have alot of other things to do aswell like new rear suspension. my car is notorious for not hooking, tired of that. i think i will be in mid 6's, and mid to low 10's here in a few weeks

[coupe]

No matter the pump...if pressure reads low on idle or anywhere, you have a problem.

Check clearances. Check them again. Spin motor over a few times and do it one more time. :nice:

[QWKSNKE]

That highly unlikely.

not in a 5 qt pan it isn't. I know someone who has done it and is a reason I will NEVER run a high volume pump in my cars.

[EHardy1971]

No matter the pump...if pressure reads low on idle or anywhere, you have a problem.

Check clearances. Check them again. Spin motor over a few times and do it one more time. :nice:
:yup: Some may think it's over kill,but I always plasti-gauge mine twice.Once during initial clearance checks,and a second time after I torque it all down,and like Coupe said,rotate the crank a couple of times.

[BAD INT]

hv pumps are pan drainers but you just don't throw them at any engine,as with any custom engine you make necessary adjustments for them.As far as the cross hatch most of the engines I build for racing or hp street my cylinders look like chrome or have very minor cross hatch just because you dont see it doesnt mean its bad.just make sure there arent major wear areas I know most people dont have bore guages at home but its worth a trip to the local machine shop.A lot of times just a quick hone with a christmas (one with the balls) brush just to take any glaze or stuck particles is all that is needed.Someone who doesnt know how to correctly use a stone hone will kill your clearances quickly and you will have piston rock or rattle when the engine is warm. Was you 550hp n/a or power adder?

[Italian LX]

not in a 5 qt pan it isn't. I know someone who has done it and is a reason I will NEVER run a high volume pump in my cars.
I was refering to it's use with a large capacity pan... since that's what Edgar had just recommended in his previous post.

[88scgt]

my block is at the machine shop getting honed. the cylinders looked great just no cross hatching. as far as the building of my engine the clearences were checked twice. the oil pump just went bad. most likely the main reason is b/c on the pick up there was a small hole in the mesh. i think a piece of trash got in the oil pump. the oil pressure at idle was not always low. i have had this engine built for two years and it just started having low oil pressure last time to the track, usualy at idle it is around 25 to 30 but last time to the track it dropped to 14 -16. the car has been run very hard lots of racing etc.. the engine is a 306 with forged lunati pistons bpm forged h beam rods stock crank. has world product heads ported and polished w 2.02 1.60 valves, 1.7 rockers. the cam is pretty radical not sure of duration but the lift is 586 with 112 degree lobe seperation. trick flow upper and lower with a vortech s trim at 14 psi, car made 550 with a c4 and went 6.7 at 101 and 10.8 at 127. car should run better now with new suspension in rear. i always use a hv pump b/c of the 7qt pan with an arp shaft.

[EHardy1971]

I was refering to it's use with a large capacity pan... since that's what Edgar had just recommended in his previous post.
I was talking about a factory pan,I thought that's what 88scgt had at first,but he clarified later that he had a large capacity pan.:nice:

[Wickd GT]

my block is at the machine shop getting honed. the cylinders looked great just no cross hatching. as far as the building of my engine the clearances were checked twice. the oil pump just went bad. most likely the main reason is b/c on the pick up there was a small hole in the mesh. i think a piece of trash got in the oil pump. the oil pressure at idle was not always low. i have had this engine built for two years and it just started having low oil pressure last time to the track, usually at idle it is around 25 to 30 but last time to the track it dropped to 14 -16. the car has been run very hard lots of racing etc.. the engine is a 306 with forged lunati pistons bpm forged h beam rods stock crank. has world product heads ported and polished w 2.02 1.60 valves, 1.7 rockers. the cam is pretty radical not sure of duration but the lift is 586 with 112 degree lobe separation. trick flow upper and lower with a vortech s trim at 14 psi, car made 550 with a c4 and went 6.7 at 101 and 10.8 at 127. car should run better now with new suspension in rear. i always use a hv pump b/c of the 7qt pan with an arp shaft.



Make sure that the thrust bearing has the right clearance, when you set it up, get a flat piece of glass, and a 1200 grid sand paper flat on top of the glass, and only sand down at the front of the thrust bearing, meaning to the front of the engine, between .005-.006" is what you want for end play on the crankshaft . Did you find pieces of bearings? look at your old thrust bearing.

Edgar

[88scgt]

well after what is's and maybes the culpret has identified himself. the two back mians were out of alighnment causing these two mains to lose oil pressure(would explain low pressure at idle). looks like it will be another week for my block to be at machine shop, has to get alighned honed monday. this will slow my build another week since i am in auburn. but on the flip side we got our 393 back which will go in our 86. this engine is expected to make somewere around 500 on motor then we will put the shot on it. we had a 347 in it for two years making 663rwhp until the broke decided to give(stock block). the car went a consistent 6.3 at 109 and 10.1 at 132. we hope the new engine and jug will put it in the 5's. cross our fingers

[Craig K.]

Was the block originally aligned honed (crank bores)?

I would always recommend this on any motor, alos when the clearances were checked was it only with plastic-gage, or did your machine shop check them with a bore gage (block/cap/bearings) vs. the crank with calipers or a mic?



Concerning running a HV in a stock pan, I do this and always have in my '85, this is along with an additional 4.5 quarts with the oil cooler, accumsump and all of the -10 lines, however this motore sees 4000-6200 for 30-60 minutes at a time, so far so good never had problems, but this is not your normal application.

[EHardy1971]

well after what is's and maybes the culpret has identified himself. the two back mians were out of alighnment causing these two mains to lose oil pressure(would explain low pressure at idle)

All BS aside,my next thought/question was if maybe one of the main bearings got installed backwards,IOW,the solid one to the block,and the one with the oil port on the main cap.I've seen it happen!

[Yknot]

Don't no if your running the Ford Oil Cooler/Filter assembly, but if you are you need to take it apart and do a very good cleaning. You had metal pieces in the pan, and it's almost a givin they went through the pump, and then into the filter assembly. Not cleaning, or better yet simply replaceing the assembly, will void any re-build efforts and waste a lot of money. Check it out.!

[RedSuperRanger23]

Don't no if your running the Ford Oil Cooler/Filter assembly, but if you are you need to take it apart and do a very good cleaning. You had metal pieces in the pan, and it's almost a givin they went through the pump, and then into the filter assembly. Not cleaning, or better yet simply replaceing the assembly, will void any re-build efforts and waste a lot of money. Check it out.!

I dont know how much success people have had with cleaning the oil coolers but this is one of the few times that Ford actually says to replace something rather than just "service" it.

[88scgt]

i cant remember if the block was alighned honed or not. my machine guy did check the cleanrces and they were good is the reason he did not alighn hone it the first time. i dont not run an oil cooler

[Wickd GT]

All BS aside,my next thought/question was if maybe one of the main bearings got installed backwards,IOW,the solid one to the block,and the one with the oil port on the main cap.I've seen it happen!



Why let some one else build your motor? You want something done right, you do it the way you want and only blame you if something is not right. The only thing the machine shop does to my stuff is either the block or the heads, the rest I assemble.

Edgar

[EHardy1971]

Why let some one else build your motor? You want something done right, you do it the way you want and only blame you if something is not right. The only thing the machine shop does to my stuff is either the block or the heads, the rest I assemble.

Edgar
Same here,not to mention it's MUCH cheaper!

[88scgt]

i am the same way build all our engines