question on horsepower amount

[militarymustang88gt]

i am about to start building a 408 to put in my mustang. i am running a 4.0 crank, 6.2 rods, keith black pistons that have two valve reliefs that are 6.5cc. i am looking at getting edelbrock aluminum heads from summit that have 2.05 1.60 valves with a 60cc combustion chamber. put it in this formula thing and it will be right at 11.9:1-12:1 compression ratio. so my questions with a healthy cam choice good for the road what kind of power do you think i will be making?

[1sicklx]

There's a lot of variables that come into play here that make accurately predicting power output a pretty tall order (typically always is).

Cam choice will be a big factor ... carb or efi will make a difference, as will the exhaust.

Don't forget that the only numbers that really matter are on the time slip not the dyno sheet ;)

[militarymustang88gt]

oh i know. streetable too. i am prob going to be looking for a cam with high 500s low 600s for lift, will stay efi with i am figureing 42s just to not put a strain on a 255 pump. maybe a 100 shot just for the track later down the road

[coupe]

Get a dished piston if you want to run pump-gas. Also, use a spider-style intake (converted to EFI) with a throttle-body/elbow on top. With the right cam, and a little work on those Victor Jr. heads, it could make well over 500hp. On pump gas.

[militarymustang88gt]

well i have an edelbrock performer upper from the 302 and i just have to get a base for the 351

[coupe]

A Performer Intake?! On a 408?!? :think:

then you need to add another choice: 350-375hp. :nono:

Ditch the Performer. It won't perform well in that application.

[LeeH]

well i have an edelbrock performer upper from the 302 and i just have to get a base for the 351

302 parts on a 400+ cube stroker will make 302 power, If you use an Eddy Performer on a 408 its going to be done about 4500rpm. 2 words, Cross Section!


So far 1sicklx and Matt are dead on!

HP prediction: Too many variables to make a prediction, But the way youre headed it would be fun in a tow truck or daily driven 4X4.

Camshaft: There is way more to a cam than lift and duration, Lift and duration are a by-product of timing events and lobes chosen. A good cylinder head needs good clean charge of fresh air, This means little to no overlap and the use of faster ramps. Advertised duration and duration @ .050 gives you an idea of how fast or slow a ramp is as does LSA. Cubic inches, Total combo and desired operating parameters dictate the cam needed. Optimal for a "Streetable" application is a wide Tq curve, This means you have to be careful picking your parts or the camshaft will have to crutch a poorly chosen combo.

Streetability: This is like asking opinions because everyones perception of "streetable" is different, Mine is if it will idle its streetable.

Intake: Dale has my old Probe/CHP EFI Spyder and I think he is looking to sell it, It is new and is not a Chinese knock-off(original Eddy Vic Jr.).

[coupe]

probe efi spyder

:hmm: for a tall-deck motor(351W)? :think:

[LeeH]

:hmm: for a tall-deck motor(351W)? :think:

Yep, Fits a 9.5 deck block.

[QWKSNKE]

I agree with the others.

Cam decision will decide whether it makes 370 to the wheels or 550 to the wheels

[EHardy1971]

What gear ratio/rear end setup are you planning on using?,that,and tranny is another dictating factor as well!

[LeeH]

What gear ratio/rear end setup are you planning on using?,that,and tranny is another dictating factor as well!


One step further, What tire size and chassis weight.

[BAD INT]

if you want accurate help give enough info for an educated guess.we cant give you much help with out all variables

[EHardy1971]

One step further, What tire size and chassis weight.
Tire size would apply to how much power and torque are getting to the ground.Chassis weight would'nt affect horsepower,only times.

[militarymustang88gt]

302 parts on a 400+ cube stroker will make 302 power, If you use an Eddy Performer on a 408 its going to be done about 4500rpm. 2 words, Cross Section!


So far 1sicklx and Matt are dead on!

HP prediction: Too many variables to make a prediction, But the way youre headed it would be fun in a tow truck or daily driven 4X4.

Camshaft: There is way more to a cam than lift and duration, Lift and duration are a by-product of timing events and lobes chosen. A good cylinder head needs good clean charge of fresh air, This means little to no overlap and the use of faster ramps. Advertised duration and duration @ .050 gives you an idea of how fast or slow a ramp is as does LSA. Cubic inches, Total combo and desired operating parameters dictate the cam needed. Optimal for a "Streetable" application is a wide Tq curve, This means you have to be careful picking your parts or the camshaft will have to crutch a poorly chosen combo.

Streetability: This is like asking opinions because everyones perception of "streetable" is different, Mine is if it will idle its streetable.

Intake: Dale has my old Probe/CHP EFI Spyder and I think he is looking to sell it, It is new and is not a Chinese knock-off(original Eddy Vic Jr.).


i know all of this i aint retarted. my intake has bigger ports on it than the heads do. i am gettin the edelbrock sr. heads with the 210cc intake runners and 205 160 valves. and a 60cc combustion chamber. i am gonna call comp cams and get them to pick me a cam for my set up i am figureing a mild cam for it will be around high 500s to low 600s for lift with like 276 and 280 duration with like a 112 lsa or something. i am also going to be running 36s or 42s. not sure but gonna find out. i am looking for around 450. i know it could be way more or way less. i am just trying to put a parts list together that "should" work to make what i want.

[militarymustang88gt]

What gear ratio/rear end setup are you planning on using?,that,and tranny is another dictating factor as well!



i have a stage 3+ spec clutch with a tremec 3550 aluminum driveshaft and 3.73s and auburn posi as of right now. i am getting a rear end girdle while in the process of all of this.

[qkjuicedpony]

An 11.5:1 408 with a set of AFR 205 heads,a carb style Vic Jr intake converted to EFI,elbow,75mm throttle body,1&3/4 inch longtubes,80mm mass air,42 lb injectors


Oh and call and have a custom ground cam made....dont build a custom motor and then get and off the shelf cam.

[LeeH]

i know all of this i aint retarted. my intake has bigger ports on it than the heads do. i am gettin the edelbrock sr. heads with the 210cc intake runners and 205 160 valves. and a 60cc combustion chamber.

I never said you were, Just trying to help.

One major problem though with the intake, Its not really the size of the port but the length that hurts you. The intake will be a major bottleneck if your looking to make power above 4500rpm.

The heads are not Victors but more than likely Victor Jrs, Eddelbrock Victor cylinder heads are a 15* head. They require special pistons and Victor specific shaft rockers not to mention they come with larger intake valves and ports than what you posted. Anything short of a converted Vic jr or Super Vic intake would be a waste of time on a Victor headed engine.

[LeeH]

Tire size would apply to how much power and torque are getting to the ground.Chassis weight would'nt affect horsepower,only times.

Sorry I got in car mode and out of engine mode. LOL
Posting too many things on too many forums at one time :metal:

[Evol393]

850 Holley DP with a super vic or air gap intake if your gonna stay mild. The $$ you save will be worth it. On the cam choice id call Bennett Racing or Ed curtis @FTI Plan on saving some money for an astro a-5 kit or a tko600 after you break that 3550 in a million pieces.

[LeeH]

Plan on saving some money for an astro a-5 kit or a tko600 after you break that 3550 in a million pieces.

The only real weak link in the 3550 is the mainshaft, It will take a ton more abuse than the T5 though.

[Italian LX]

850 Holley DP with a super vic or air gap intake if your gonna stay mild. The $$ you save will be worth it.
How much money do you really think he'll save by going carb? :think:

Also, if he's wanting to daily drive this, he's going to enjoy the better fuel econoimy of the EFI and its ability to adapt to weather changes... not to mention, the added low-end torque you get from injection. ;)

If you're old-school afriad of EFI, (and don't have the desire to learn) then yes, go with a carb... otherwise, stick with the technology that is going to net you better resullts with very little increase in cost.

[Italian LX]

Plan on saving some money for an astro a-5 kit or a tko600 after you break that 3550 in a million pieces.
I agree with LeeH's comments above.

The 3550 is merely an early model TKO with a 28-spline outpuit shaft. It should last just fine behind an N/A Windsor.

[coupe]

How much money do you really think he'll save by going carb?
I would think quite a bit. :shrug:

Also, if he's wanting to daily drive this, he's going to enjoy the better fuel econoimy of the EFI... not to mention, the added low-end torque you get from injection. ;)
I have heard some good things about some of the newer carburetors. Supposedly, many of the shortcomings of the older stuff (weak powervalves, venturi designs, etc) have really been updated...

Not my preference, but they seem to be getting more and more popular.

[Italian LX]

I would think quite a bit. :shrug:
Other than a set of injectors and a tuner, what else increases the price of EFI over carb?

[qkjuicedpony]

I would think quite a bit. :shrug:


If you do it correctly then it will cost a lot.I recently finished up my carb swap and i wanted to do it right.here is a list of the parts i put on my car for the swap.you guys do the math

BG400 Fuel Pump..$425.00
(2)BG 2 Port regulators $100 each
(2)Fuel Filters...$50 each
Parker Funnelweb Intake & porting to match heads $500
Demon 750 carb...$600
Sumped fuel tank...$150
-12 feed line from tank to pump to regulator & fittings..$250
-8 lines from regulators to carb&nitrous solenoid...$100
Dist for carb...$100
Misc parts...$100


Granted I have enough fuel system to support 1500hp:DBut I wanted it done right.

The people who say it's cheaper are fools.they are the guys who go to VatoZone and buy a $20 fuel pump and a $50 flea market carb.

[militarymustang88gt]

mine is the second gen 3550 with the 29 input and 31 spline output. but it isnt the new stuff it is like a 99 to 01 trans from what the serial number said. and yeah if i do the 351 i will stay fuel injected for the fuel economy since it will me a more daily driver than at the track. and all i have to do is get a set of 36s for about 200 and a lower intake for about another 200 and make the fuel rail fit and thats it. so i think 400 compared to like 700-800 to stay efi is a hell of a lot cheaper.

[LeeH]

mine is the second gen 3550 with the 29 input and 31 spline output. but it isnt the new stuff it is like a 99 to 01 trans from what the serial number said. and yeah if i do the 351 i will stay fuel injected for the fuel economy since it will me a more daily driver than at the track. and all i have to do is get a set of 36s for about 200 and a lower intake for about another 200 and make the fuel rail fit and thats it. so i think 400 compared to like 700-800 to stay efi is a hell of a lot cheaper.

Its 26/31 and if thats the case you dont have a 3550 its either a TKO or TKO2(difference is the TKO2 was a road race tranny with a lower ratio in the higher gears). The 3550 had a 10 spline input and a 28 spline output just like the T5.

[qkjuicedpony]

The tko2 also had an upgraded case from the original tko correct?

[LeeH]

The tko2 also had an upgraded case from the original tko correct?

I am not sure, I know that the case on the 3550 and TKO were upgraded at some point. Dale has a later 3550 than mine and the cases are different but the TKO2 also had steel shift forks.

[EHardy1971]

I have about 5 Holley 4 barrel carbs sitting in my shop..........

























....they're good paperweights!:jester:

[LeeH]

....they're good paperweights!:jester:


No,
Carter has that market sealed up:popcorn:

[88scgt]

i had a 3550 and they are the best way better than the new 600. and it does have a 31 spline to the drive shaft. i have seen merley 500rwhp brreak a 600. everybody that i no will not run the 600 and want a 3550. my car made 550rwhp on the trans and it was perfect until i sold it, the trans that millitarymustang is talking about was blake walkers and his car made over 600rwhp and high 600 in torque. the 600 blows ass. millitary is going to be running trickflow twisteed heads and trickflow upper and lower intake that i am selling him. most likely he will also use my 347 kit that has a scat forged crank, bpm forged h rods, probe forged dome top pistons. the cam is a 586 lift 27? duration and 112 lobe seperation, trickflow npush rods, comp cam lifters and com cam rockers, and maybe my old novi 2000 blower if he can afford it

[EHardy1971]

No,
Carter has that market sealed up:popcorn:
:rofl:Good point!

[coupe]

The people who say it's cheaper are fools. They are the guys who go to VatoZone and buy a $20 fuel pump and a $50 flea market carb.

I've seen some of the cheap stuff run pretty well. I know you have too. No need for a 1500hp fuel system on a 400hp car.

Starting from scratch...having no EFI parts at all...it would be cheaper to do a carb setup (even with a nice carb). EFI needs upper/lower, TB, MAF, sensors, injectors, more expensive fuel line, return line, regulator, etc. Carb needs one intake, carb, pump, and regulator.

It's all relative...as qkjuice pointed out. EFI is best for what you want it sounds like! :nice:

[88scgt]

I've seen some of the cheap stuff run pretty well. I know you have too. No need for a 1500hp fuel system on a 400hp car.

Starting from scratch...having no EFI parts at all...it would be cheaper to do a carb setup (even with a nice carb). EFI needs upper/lower, TB, MAF, sensors, injectors, more expensive fuel line, return line, regulator, etc. Carb needs one intake, carb, pump, and regulator.

It's all relative...as qkjuice pointed out. EFI is best for what you want it sounds like! :nice:
good point coupe but if you are buying parts andd one day plan to have a big boy engine why not go ahead and buy nice things like a 1500hp fuel system instead of having to buy it twice b/c we all no when u go to sell things you only get a 1/4 of what you paid for it

[EHardy1971]

Starting from scratch...having no EFI parts at all...it would be cheaper to do a carb setup (even with a nice carb). EFI needs upper/lower, TB, MAF, sensors, injectors, more expensive fuel line, return line, regulator, etc. Carb needs one intake, carb, pump, and regulator.
:agree: I was thinking that he was talking about going from EFI to carb.I remember when everybody was doing that in the late 80's on their Foxes,because nobody wanted to "fool with that computer shit!"

[Italian LX]

Starting from scratch...having no EFI parts at all...it would be cheaper to do a carb setup (even with a nice carb).
Maybe so, but how many people really start from scratch? Unless you are building a dedicated track car, very few people have to start from scratch.

EFI needs upper/lower, TB, MAF, sensors, injectors, more expensive fuel line, return line, regulator, etc.
On a Mustang that was already EFI, both fuel lines, the regulator, and all sensors (except the MAF) are good for 500+ rwhp. So, you mentioning all that stuff is really not even relevent to this arguement.

Btw, my used intake, used 36# injectors, new Accufab 90mm, and new PMAS 95mm MAF cost me well under $1200.


Carb needs one intake, carb, pump, and regulator.
Since we know he already has an EFI car, your carb shopping list should sound like this: lower intake, carb, pump, regulator, different distributor, fuel line rework,


Don't look at this s a "start from scratch" project because nowhere in this guys post did he allude to that.

[coupe]

Don't look at this as a "start from scratch" project because nowhere in this guys post did he allude to that.

I know that. But judging by some other posts, it seems that there was a split decision about the total cost of all parts needed to do either type of setup.

I clarified what I thought he should do:
It's all relative...EFI is best for what you want it sounds like!
:nice:

[Evol393]

How much money do you really think he'll save by going carb? :think:

Also, if he's wanting to daily drive this, he's going to enjoy the better fuel econoimy of the EFI and its ability to adapt to weather changes... not to mention, the added low-end torque you get from injection. ;)

If you're old-school afriad of EFI, (and don't have the desire to learn) then yes, go with a carb... otherwise, stick with the technology that is going to net you better resullts with very little increase in cost.

IF the $$ and knowledge is there then go for it he just acted like he didnt want to spend a ton of money for the efi parts, i was just stating my opinion as an option. Ive had both and currnetly have efi but to each his own. Low end tq from efi?:think: You must have read that from some magazine or somthing. Very little increase in cost? efi setups are twice what a carb setup runs. Maybe you should have the desire to learn how to tune on your own car before you bash someone elses opinion with your own made up facts. Because i dont think i would take any advise from someone who has a 418 that hardly makes 90hp more than my stock bottom 302.

[04 Mach1]

Because i dont think i would take any advise from someone who has a 418 that hardly makes 90hp more than my stock bottom 302.

:ohsnap:

[coupe]

I dont think i would take any advise from someone who has a 418 that hardly makes 90hp more than my stock bottom 302.
http://www.turbomustangs.com/smf/Smileys/default/ignore.gif Yikes!

:popcorn:

[EHardy1971]

This is about to get ugly!
:popcorn:

[Italian LX]

Because i dont think i would take any advise from someone who has a 418 that hardly makes 90hp more than my stock bottom 302.
Just like I wouldn't take advice from anyone that thinks peak dyno numbers are everything. You apparently know nothing about my combo and are starting an arguement that you won't be able to back up.

However, if you insist, maybe you can throw up a torque graph of this 302 and then we will start the comparison that you are so willing to take on.

[03slobra]

Just like I wouldn't take advice from anyone that thinks peak dyno numbers are everything. You apparently know nothing about my combo and are starting an arguement that you won't be able to back up.

However, if you insist, maybe you can throw up a torque graph of this 302 and then we will start the comparison that you are so willing to take on.
:boxer:

[89five0Gt]

:popcorn:

[LeeH]

Low end tq from efi?:think:You must have read that from some magazine or somthing. :ignorant: You are clueless

Very little increase in cost? efi setups are twice what a carb setup runs. Maybe you should have the desire to learn how to tune on your own car before you bash someone elses opinion with your own made up facts. :asshat: Its obvious you have no clue, You know its one thing to half ass a fuel system but to do one right isnt cheap regardless if its EFI or carb.

Because i dont think i would take any advise from someone who has a 418 that hardly makes 90hp more than my stock bottom 302.
Not my fight but it still doesnt change the fact I take offense to it, Again you are showing your level of intelligence or rather lack of.

[EHardy1971]

Low end tq from efi?:think: You must have read that from some magazine or somthing.

I'm going to have to say that you need to do some more reading yourself.The method of fuel delivery has NOTHING to do with torque,PERIOD! The cam selection plays a major key in this.Another example;a truck with a diesel engine,which puts down hellified torque,and guess what?,THEY'RE INJECTED!:rolleyes:

[BAD INT]

Evol vs Italian lets get on the track and see some slips

[militarymustang88gt]

i think i have decided to stay 302 based with a 347 rotating assy. solid roller turned to 7800. na for now and then might go boosted or on the spray.

[04 Mach1]

I agree with BAD INT!

[89five0Gt]

:werd:

[EHardy1971]

Evol vs Italian lets get on the track and see some slips
:agree: :duel:

[Evol393]

Just like I wouldn't take advice from anyone that thinks peak dyno numbers are everything. You apparently know nothing about my combo and are starting an arguement that you won't be able to back up.

However, if you insist, maybe you can throw up a torque graph of this 302 and then we will start the comparison that you are so willing to take on.

Where did i say anything about peak #'s are everything?? or that i knew about your combo? Hmm i didnt. I really dont care what it is, I was just stating my opinion. Sorry i dont have any torque graphs laying around dude so i cant compete with a bench racer like yourself or your friend.

[Evol393]

Evol vs Italian lets get on the track and see some slips

I hope for his sake that his big ci windsor doesnt have a lil n/a 302 on his back bumper.

[BAD INT]

I hope for his sake that his big ci windsor doesnt have a lil n/a 302 on his back bumper.

I wouldnt mind seeing the race but to far away,stock bottom ends dont get a lot of credit.I was driving a friends car withstock bottom and a letter cam that was putting 350 to the tires.I am big on the big number low et for NO money.I have spent the money and also ran junk its all just attention to detail to a point then the trick parts run in and ruin things.Dyno's do help for tuning issues and o2 readings and get you close to your shift point but the track is proof and the dyno is spoof.

[Italian LX]

Where did i say anything about peak #'s are everything??
I'm sorry, I must have misread what you were saying. For a minute there, I thought you were comparing the peak power number of my 418 to your peak power number of your 302 and basing your whole arguement on that. Since I apparently was wrong, then please tell what exactly you meant when you said:

"Because i dont think i would take any advise from someone who has a 418 that hardly makes 90hp more than my stock bottom 302."

That just sounded like you were comparing peak numbers to me. :shrug:


...or that i knew about your combo? Hmm i didnt.
Well, considering those numbers in my sig are from when the motor had less than 2000 miles on it and just a rough street tune, you really have no knowledge of my tuning ability. Not to mention, the cam I chose was for streetability and a good torque curve in lieu of high RPM power numbers.

. . . Yet you insist on telling me that I need to learn how to tune my own car. You really should get a clue about someone before you start trying to bash them.

Sorry i dont have any torque graphs laying around dude so i cant compete with a bench racer like yourself...
Ha ha ha, if that ain't the pot calling the kettle black. :rolleyes: You are the one that started comparing dyno numbers in the first place.

[Italian LX]

I hope for his sake that his big ci windsor doesnt have a lil n/a 302 on his back bumper.
Unless you have some bad-ass, track-only suspension, and weight reduction, I don't see that a race between you and I would even even be worth setting up.

[coupe]

Sounds like we may have the first grudge match of the next track day to me! :nice:

[Evol393]

I'm sorry, I must have misread what you were saying. For a minute there, I thought you were comparing the peak power number of my 418 to your peak power number of your 302 and basing your whole arguement on that. Since I apparently was wrong, then please tell what exactly you meant when you said:

"Because i dont think i would take any advise from someone who has a 418 that hardly makes 90hp more than my stock bottom 302."

That just sounded like you were comparing peak numbers to me. :shrug:



Well, considering those numbers in my sig are from when the motor had less than 2000 miles on it and just a rough street tune, you really have no knowledge of my tuning ability. Not to mention, the cam I chose was for streetability and a good torque curve in lieu of high RPM power numbers.

. . . Yet you insist on telling me that I need to learn how to tune my own car. You really should get a clue about someone before you start trying to bash them.


Ha ha ha, if that ain't the pot calling the kettle black. :rolleyes: You are the one that started comparing dyno numbers in the first place.



Well i didnt tell you to put those weak #'s in your sig. My motor has way over 100k on it and the cam ha... its a baby. Its your car not mine if your happy with those #'s then who cares why even get so rung out about this ? Im not.

The only #'s that i compared were your's to what a 418 SHOULD put down thats it. I dont have a secret box in my room where i keep all my dyno #'s and compare them to other peoples. I just think your car depending on the combo should have made 450+ but thats just me. Just b/c it didnt put down the power it should have doenst mean it doesnt run good(i didnt say that) cuz ive seen some dyno queens at the track and the street not be able to out run a junkyard 302.

[Evol393]

Unless you have some bad-ass, track-only suspension, and weight reduction, I don't see that a race between you and I would even even be worth setting up.

My car is a street car if you need time to "tune" or "setup" whatever then thats cool I'll be at bama and mmp 2 or 3 times out of the month hopefully.

[Skillet]

Bama April 5th. $5. :banana2: