adjustable shocks

[99LS1]

A dist. for a coilover setup wrote this about adjustable shocks. I wanted to run this by you guys to hear any different angles on his take.

Adjustable dampening, an evil idea in my mind, mostly because it is a marketing ploy for damper manufacturers that sell them for less than $3000usd per set.#Dampers that use a needle down the middle of the piston rod are only bleed adjustment.# Bleed is the hole that you use to bypass the main valve, on passenger cars its usually a drilled hole for comfort at low speed.# Bypassing the valve softens the dampening but if the damper is there to control the spring and you bypass the control mechanism, ie. the valve, then what have you accomplished?

#

True adjustable dampening must be done with a secondary valve, a true hydraulic valve, such as Ohlins, Dynamic, Proflex etc.## The main valve is set#and as the oil is forced to a secondary reservoir it is controlled again by the secondary#hydraulic valve.## The main valve is a stack of shims on each side of the piston, so how would#you adjust that without taking the damper apart.# The secondary hydraulic valve allows minor#changes to the main damping force by controlling the oil#flow.# You can then#have seperate controls for bounce and rebound.# On a mono tube#design the floating piston would move to the external reservoir and this would allow shorter#dampers with longer stroke.#

Hotbits is working on a new line that is 2#and 3 way adjustable.# Highspeed and lowspeed bounce and rebound control on an externally adjustable valve between the main damper and external cannister.

I saw the prototype for the WRX and EVOIIV a year ago, they are hoping to start launching some this year.... The only other way to do adjustable dampening is with the new electro magnetic oils (caddy xlr & new vette)....but I can only guess the price.... I have never taken apart a Tien or JIC, have actually never seen one, which probably means that they are not good enough to rally.## HotBits rally setups are only a revalved version of the street set, I ran 10 National events without inspecting the set in my Focus, when I did, they needed nothing.# So they are#build tough in the TUV certified facility. Watch our website for updates on the Talon set.# Something should be up on the site in August.

[Sendero]

Anyone who has improper english or grammer in technical posts, I tend to ignore. If you're that intelligent then you can figure out how to use a keyboard.

With that said, I am sure there are some "crappy" adjustable strut/shocks out there. I'd be interested to know who he was referring to in that post. Hope it wasn't Bilstien, Koni, or Tokico. Kind of hard to attack "adjustable" shock engineering when those people pretty much wrote the book on it.

:nono:

[99LS1]

His first language is french, not english. Attacking his grammar has nothing to do w/ the issue.

He basically said any adj. set under #3k is going to do it. What he is saying makes sense. Who cares if the people wrote the book on it did it that, it's probably from a cost standpoint like he alluded too. There's probably too much engineering involved to do hyd. valves on cheaper shocks.

My understanding is that at least w/ a secondary valve, you can make minor adjustments since the shock should be suited for the spring you picked out and only need minor adjustments. By just bleeding the main valve, you're messing w/ the total dampening and you shouldn't need to make such drastic changes. I'm not saying what the guy says is gospel, I'd just like to hear some thoughts on it.

[Sendero]

His first language is french, not english. Attacking his grammar has nothing to do w/ the issue.

I'd just like to hear some thoughts on it.

..and you got my thoughs on it. There was no way for me to know he's French and can't use a french to english converter in Word. Even still, he's a salesman and he said it in his own posts.


He basically said any adj. set under #3k is going to do it.


That pretty much covers every street based shock in the catalog.


What he is saying makes sense. Who cares if the people wrote the book on it did it that, it's probably from a cost standpoint like he alluded too. There's probably too much engineering involved to do hyd. valves on cheaper shocks.

..and why would you want to? Normally you get your suspension setup dialed in with spring rates, roll centers, ride heights, anti-squat, and wheel sizes THEN choose a dampener that falls withing the suspensions natural frequency. MM uses these same Bilstiens on their championship track car. Many OT'ers and AutoX'ers use the same shock. Only recently did Cadillac and Chevrolet make the jump to adjustables which use the "magic fluid" (magnetic). But as it was explained to me, it was for reliability reasons rather than "control" of the shock via engineering.

My Bilsteins are non-adjustable because they are matched with my spring rates. I would have to make a HUGE jump in wheel rate to neccesitate a change in dampeners or a settings change. The only problem I am having now is rebound which I am sure is due to my portly curb weight.


My understanding is that at least w/ a secondary valve, you can make minor adjustments since the shock should be suited for the spring you picked out and only need minor adjustments. By just bleeding the main valve, you're messing w/ the total dampening and you shouldn't need to make such drastic changes.

If you are building a car that is going to drive down to 1/10ths of a second on Sebring or Road Atlanta, maybe. But I still think building a proper setup and matching all the components will put you into the right "range" of dampening. Could you use some minor adjustment? Sure and it would be based on weather, track conditions, tire compounds, etc. Is it worth $3,000 (US) on a street driven car, no.

Also, he mentions the bleed hole which is correct in his theory. But you also have to remember that the engineer's have calculated its value and what it does to the shock's travel. If I remember correctly, Edelbrock uses a "check valve" that closes the bleed hole when it senses jounce forces to ensure firmer shock control (stiffer compression setting). This is the same mechanism that is used on Baja racing vehicles which you and I both know take as much, if not more abuse, than a rally vehicle. If you apply this same theory to a Tokico 5-way adjustable, I am sure the "settings" of that shock are just some method of restricting the bleed hole. Koni could be the same way, but why change the engineering of the shock when its proven to work and to win? I would have to see more data on the bleed hole vs. secondary valve.

His "statement" is not wrong either. What he is describing is used on many "remote mounted" shocks. If you've ever seen on of those setups on a race vehicle its usually the fluid tank and valve. I just don't think its worth doing on a street based car.

I am not sure if you are looking at adjustable shocks for the Talon, but I would be more apt to recommend getting your suspension where you like it and then make the purchase for C/O's. We need to get on modding your IRS rear's camber curve and maybe even stick a sway bar back there to dial out some of that understeer.

This better? :shrug:

[99LS1]

:nice: better. His setup is non-adj. also and everyone is so hyped on adj most of the time, it was refreshing to hear a school of thought against it.

I'm looking at full coilovers. For the rear susp. there's not a whole lot you can do. I'm not really aware of someone making LCAs, but they do make UCA which then I could adjust my rear camber, it looks way off. Along w/ bushings, rear sway, and rear toe eliminator that's about all she wrote for the rear.

I should do the coilovers later, but I know I want these and he's having a group buy, about 20% off.

[Sendero]

His setup is non-adj. also and everyone is so hyped on adj most of the time, it was refreshing to hear a school of thought against it.

Adjustables do have their place and application, but I feel that for our cars its better to build to a specific goal and get a set of dampers to match. This is probably why you see a non-adjustable setup on his vehicle.


I should do the coilovers later, but I know I want these and he's having a group buy, about 20% off.

Is that not where you need to be anyway? What factors in your suspension setup would cause you to not need these specific coil-overs? If they are going to be close in your final setup, I'd go ahead and get them. Worst case scenario is you have to send them off to be revalved. Thats not a big deal especially with higher end shocks/struts because they are designed to be rebuilt and revalved.

[99LS1]

Yeah, I'll end up w/ these eventually. The nice thing about these is that they're somewhat based off Bilsteins, so they're cheap to rebuild/revalve.

The only other real option for coilovers is $2k, and they'd work great for autox/roadracing, but doing anykind of rally would be impossible with them, they're always set really stiff. The guy's been testing the hotbits for quite a while and they work great roadracing as well as rally.

So that's the only reason I"d not buy these. Bc I want something more roadracing oriented. I also like to buy all the little supporting mods before making a big purchase. Those are the only reasons I'm hesistant. I really need 17s, tires, UCAs, bushings, strut bars, a roll bar, toe elim., and a few other minor things I can't think of.