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View Full Version : time to o/ring the heads


QWKSNKE
03-27-2005, 06:17 PM
Yep, got the heads off the car today and found the fire rings on the head gaskets to be oval shaped on cylinders 2,3,6, & 7.

6 & 7 were the worst and were probably the ones allowing air into the coolant system. I am sure Brian will post pics later on tonight.


So off to the machine shop they go.

96GTS
03-27-2005, 06:56 PM
Congrats!...I guess :dunno: :think: I mean..it sucks having to pay for more machine work, but its cool that you're making the pressure/power to need them :chug:

NightHawk756
03-27-2005, 07:12 PM
Yeah, when I bought my heads, I opted for ones that were already o-ringed. I just want to be on the safe-r side.

It sucks to have to come out of pocket again on it. But at least you know what the problem is now. ;)

Italian LX
03-27-2005, 09:39 PM
I am sure Brian will post pics later on tonight.

http://www.deepstageperformance.com/pics/blownhg-01.jpg



Notice the distance the rings moved up at the tops (red arrows) compared to the centers. (green arrows)

Also, you can see how far the gasket was pushed up against the studs. (yellow arrows) :eek:

http://www.deepstageperformance.com/pics/blownhg-02.jpg



Here's the underside view of the gasket laying on the head.

http://www.deepstageperformance.com/pics/blownhg-03.jpg

Shorty
03-27-2005, 11:47 PM
i agree it sucks to have to do the extra to it. but it is cool you make that kind of power. i guess for the little extra money it pays to go ahead and get the ringed heads from the beginning.

coupe
03-28-2005, 08:09 AM
You sure the deck surface is perfectly true? I mean; how could it push out just right in that location Lee? Hope you get those issues worked out.

Italian LX
03-28-2005, 09:43 AM
You sure the deck surface is perfectly true?
He had the block and heads both resurfaced.

I mean; how could it push out just right in that location Lee? Hope you get those issues worked out.
That's not the only cylinder; I only used the arrows on one for reference. If you look at the adjacent cylinders in the pic, you can see that thy had the same issue. It seems the inner two were worse that the outer two on both sides.

coupe
03-28-2005, 10:18 AM
:think: hmm. get that thing rolling again guys!

QWKSNKE
03-28-2005, 12:14 PM
Damn it! AFR (along with my machinist) says not to o'ring the heads. :shrug:

Gotta make some more phone calls. :fuss:

Wall96cobra
03-28-2005, 12:16 PM
What about copper head gaskets?

Italian LX
03-28-2005, 12:16 PM
Damn it! AFR (along with my machinist) says not to o'ring the heads. :shrug:
What about o-ringing the block? :shrug:

93Cobra#2771
03-28-2005, 12:17 PM
Uh oh...

The real question - did the small bit of detonation cause this? If so, it's time to make your tune a LOT safer, or back down on the boost a bit...

QWKSNKE
03-28-2005, 12:33 PM
no it wasn't detonation. Probably just excess boost pressure.

Just got off the phone with the machinist again. Even though its not recommended by Cometic, (even though that was the first gasket that AFR told me to use today) We both agreed it was worth a try to use them. So I am about to go back and pick up my heads and purchase the gaskets

QWKSNKE
03-28-2005, 12:39 PM
What about copper head gaskets?

They allow boost leakage

Brian,
yes o'ringing the block would be a better option if it wasn't in the car but Danny still frowns on it. Basically, since the cometic style gasket has come out there are not many people o'ringing either item anymore because of excess machine shop cost along with it being a pain in the ass to clean out the o'ring groove when removing the heads. (blowing head gasket, or removal because of damaged head/motor, etc)

86GT
03-28-2005, 12:52 PM
cometic style gasket?

Can you enlighten me on these? I have not heard of this.

QWKSNKE
03-28-2005, 12:56 PM
http://www.cometic.com/index.htm

Italian LX
03-28-2005, 12:57 PM
cometic style gasket?

Can you enlighten me on these? I have not heard of this.
He's refering to multi-layered steel gaskets.

http://www.cometic.com/catalogs/AutoCat04.pdf

Sendero
03-28-2005, 12:57 PM
cometic style gasket?

Can you enlighten me on these? I have not heard of this.

They are either a hardend steel or copper gasket. Tech Here (http://www.cometic.com/catalogs/AutoCat04.pdf)

But from what I have read, they ARE the gasket to get for boosted applications. I don't know what would cause boost leakage? :think:

EDIT: :doh: Brian beat me to it, but I'm not going to edit my post. :P

svopaul
03-28-2005, 01:00 PM
There are two different style of O-ringing....I would NOT do the block and I WOULD do the heads. There are the Felpro Locwire headgaskets which have a receiver groove in the head and then there is the style that was done to Brad's TFS heads which have a wire that impressions into the gasket.

On a V8 with Turbo or supercharged I won't even put one together without O-ringing the heads but that's me. I have noticed that machine shops in the south don't like to O-ring heads and from what I have found it is because they have the equipment to do the block and not the heads and they just don't want to either send them out or lose the business :shrug: Back in Maryland it was common practice and still is to O-ring heads.

I had Locwire gaskets on my LX and even despite tuning issues initially and the popping I had going on at the track...I never had an issue with the headgaskets at 15psi.

Not sure why AFR says no but I don't buy it....

Never used Cometics personally so I can't comment on those...but if you try them and still have troubles I wouldn't hesitate to have your heads O-ringed.

86GT
03-28-2005, 01:04 PM
Thanks guys, I learned something new everyday.

NightHawk756
03-28-2005, 01:07 PM
I'm not sure why AFR would say not to o-ring. But it's a good place to start. But I'm not sure why the machinist would steer you away from it. Is this the same guy that told you that a mexican block wasn't any better than a standard 302 block?? I would just check with other sources also. I would suggest calling someone like Total Engine Airflow or the equivelant.

I bought my heads from a guy that had blown a head gasket under boost(centrifugal) and he sent them to TEA to have them inspected and they suggested the o-ringing and installed them. :shrug:

QWKSNKE
03-28-2005, 01:30 PM
Not to start an argument but if the head manufacturer and the machinist say the same thing without being in a conversation with the other, then that is who I am going to believe.

There is only one way to find out if the cometics will work or not and I guess I will be the guinea pig. If they work, then I will be racing at FFW, if they don't I won't

coupe
03-28-2005, 01:37 PM
The boost pressure cannot blow out a head gasket Lee...but the theoretical compression ratio is increased with the blower. Maybe that's what you mean.

I still would question the tune going on in there. I think you used a 1011-1 gasket right? It should not blow with a safe tune on an intercooled 14 psi.

BTW, the cometics are very nice gaskets. They are multilayer steel/composite & I think you replace only outer layers (the rest is reusable!!).

svopaul
03-28-2005, 01:53 PM
Not to start an argument but if the head manufacturer and the machinist say the same thing without being in a conversation with the other, then that is who I am going to believe.



"I" am not looking to start any arguements....This is a good tech topic...I am legitimately interested to know why AFR says not to do it :shrug: I want to know if it is just their preference or a difference in the material in the head or manufacture of the head etc.... :chug:

Italian LX
03-28-2005, 02:12 PM
Damn it! AFR (along with my machinist) says not to o'ring the heads. :shrug:
This place o-rings AFR heads. :shrug:

http://www.houstonperformance.com/heads.htm

QWKSNKE
03-28-2005, 02:47 PM
The boost pressure cannot blow out a head gasket Lee...but the theoretical compression ratio is increased with the blower. Maybe that's what you mean.

I still would question the tune going on in there. I think you used a 1011-1 gasket right? It should not blow with a safe tune on an intercooled 14 psi.

BTW, the cometics are very nice gaskets. They are multilayer steel/composite & I think you replace only outer layers (the rest is reusable!!).


Let me re-word it then. The excessive pressure in the cylinder due to the addition of a supercharger last year is screwing with the cheap ass Fel-pro gaskets (1011-2)

The tune should be very safe at this point. Total timing is set at 18 degrees which is 2 less than where we had bumped it to during the tuning session at Blake's last year.

As far as o'ringing, Call AFR tech. I think it is mostly a maintainence thing. Each time the head comes off and it is not 'square', you will have to have the o'ring groove redone after the heads are decked. I don't know. :shrug: They tell me not to do it, then I am not going to do it.

A lot of this could be contributed to the thermostat problems I had 2 weeks ago. Who knows :shrug: The only reason I ran those particular fel-pros again was because I they would be ok to use on a freshly decked block, heads, and 1/2" studs. Before the motor cracked a piston, I blew the fel-pros at least once and when the motor was torn apart, Brian discovered that each head gasket had blown. So with that being said, based off my experience I would not say that the 1011 series gasket is a good one to use on a forced induction SBF.

QWKSNKE
03-28-2005, 02:49 PM
oh yeah...

Now I am going to go re-assemble my car :banana2:

Scothew
03-28-2005, 03:28 PM
What'd you get for gaskets?

QWKSNKE
03-28-2005, 03:45 PM
cometic

coupe
03-28-2005, 04:01 PM
You know: I've seen several 1011-2's blow out in strange ways. Only time I've seen them last is in SLVRBULLIT's car and he sprayed 100 shot off the line several times (but I guess that only gave it like 200 hp, so therein lies the difference :poke: )

QWKSNKE
03-28-2005, 04:03 PM
You know: I've seen several 1011-2's blow out in strange ways. Only time I've seen them last is in SLVRBULLIT's car and he sprayed 100 shot off the line several times (but I guess that only gave it like 200 hp, so therein lies the difference :poke: )


:lol:

I never has a problem when spraying 150 with those gaskets. Just when I installed the blower last fall

Sendero
03-28-2005, 04:47 PM
Modular Motors don't have boost related head gasket problems... :jester:

Scothew
03-28-2005, 05:17 PM
Modular Motors don't have boost related head gasket problems... :jester:


:lol: What a time to bring that in here :rofl:

Lee have you already got the gaskets or are they on order? Just to be informed, i am wanting to see pics if possible.

svopaul
03-28-2005, 05:34 PM
Modular Motors don't have boost related head gasket problems... :jester:

Not when you don't have BOOST on them :poke: :jester:

QWKSNKE
03-28-2005, 05:58 PM
:lol: What a time to bring that in here :rofl:

Lee have you already got the gaskets or are they on order? Just to be informed, i am wanting to see pics if possible.


Sorry but they were already on the car before you posted in the thread. Go to the cometic website I posted above.

Nathan,
that's because mod motors already have the gaskets on them like the cometics.

Scothew
03-28-2005, 06:03 PM
Thats cool, I was more curious to see them acctually on a car than the pic I saw on their site. Hope they work for ya :nice:

Sendero
03-28-2005, 06:11 PM
Nathan,
that's because mod motors already have the gaskets on them like the cometics.

I know this. Plus we have a greater surface area to clamp to. Just getting my token pushrod poke in.

:pokeown:

QWKSNKE
03-28-2005, 06:14 PM
I know this. Plus we have a greater surface area to clamp to. Just getting my token pushrod poke in.

:pokeown:


I got something you can clamp on to

Sendero
03-28-2005, 06:22 PM
I got something you can clamp on to

I don't think Brandon has a deck, so the back porch will have to do. :dirty:

AngelEyes
03-28-2005, 06:23 PM
Stop it right now you pervs! I am not having any of that!

NightHawk756
03-28-2005, 06:25 PM
Not to start an argument but if the head manufacturer and the machinist say the same thing without being in a conversation with the other, then that is who I am going to believe. I'm not trying to start an argument either. Just like the wideband issue, it's good tech. I understand the reason your not going to because AFR said not to. But for some reason, I myself wouldn't put much stock in the machinists thoughts because of the mexican block thing. If he had never heard of a mexican block and said so, then that's cool. But if he hadn't heard of one and then said it wasn't any better, then that's where I have a problem. Just looking at one for a few seconds, and the differences/advantages are extremely obvious.

But, we'll see how the cometics do. They may be fine. But, hanging around the turbo sites, most are using o-rings for this whole reason. Good luck bro! And keep us posted on how they do. ;)

Wickd GT
03-28-2005, 06:27 PM
Alright I got to jump in here. First, Lee you never listen, I told you to go with Cometic gaskets a long time ago. I use to have Copper gaskets with the motor o ring the heads with receiving groove, and had leaking issues for about a year. Well I took the block and had it decked where the stainless rings will be smouth out and at the same hight of the block. Put on a set of Cometic gaskets, I have put thru them 225,275 and 325 hp of juice, and never blew a head gasket. Second thing, I do not agree to had your block go from the stock head bolts to 1/2" studs. that weakends the bore and distorts the piston wall when they get tighten, due to more clamping force. If the head gasket pushed out it is "DETONATING" it is hammering that piston, you beter get a safer tune or use some race fuel, 93 is not going to do it, you better check your timing too. Make shure you clean the surface of both head and block, where the oil returns to the oil pan, put there a bit of copper coat, to make shure they don't sipp out. Before you put the heads on, make shure that the rivets do not interfiere with the head or the block, you can take the rivet off, is not going to hurt anything. When you torque the heads, since you have 1/2 studs, do not torque the uppers at 75 and the lowers at 65 for example, torque them all the same, no chance of lifting the heads. Children never listen...... LOL Now get to work:


Edgar

QWKSNKE
03-28-2005, 06:35 PM
yes Father!!

Wickd GT
03-29-2005, 05:32 AM
yes Father!!


Ahahahahahahahahah,


Let us know when you get done.



Edgar

Italian LX
03-29-2005, 07:36 AM
yes Father!!
:lol:

QWKSNKE
03-29-2005, 10:10 AM
Ahahahahahahahahah,


Let us know when you get done.



Edgar


where do I get the copper seal that you speak of? will my local parts store have it?

Wickd GT
03-29-2005, 12:16 PM
where do I get the copper seal that you speak of? will my local parts store have it?


Go to O'Reilleys or Car Quest. Look for copper seal, not the spray one, just put abit on the block where the oil returns, front and back of the block, then open the gasket a bit and put some in between the gaskets. At thetop of the block, where the lifter galley is, put a line of the copper seal across, front to back, so when oil splashes it will not try to sip thru the layers of the gasket. It is not that the Cometic gaskets will leak, but for boost and nitrous, the heads move around a bit, just a little bit of insurance. Make shure the rivet does not interfier with the head and block, the instructions will tell you about it, READ them.


Edgar

QWKSNKE
03-29-2005, 12:18 PM
I did not recieve any instructions with my gaskets. I'll go by and pick up the copper stuff today :nice:

coupe
03-29-2005, 12:32 PM
:think: (regarding the copper seal & said rivet on block...) :think:

Wickd GT
03-29-2005, 12:42 PM
:think: (regarding the copper seal & said rivet on block...) :think:


There is 3 rivets that hold the gaskets together. The bottom one you leave alone because it is away from the block. Now the front ones and the rear ones, are very close to the block so when you put the head gasket down it will not be completetly flat, so that is why it is needed to take the rivet off or cut it or grind it. It is better to take it off. Coupe this is in the Cometic gaskets it says that they seal good, but I always take a bit of precaution, in the seal side of things.


Edgar

slvrbullit
03-30-2005, 08:45 PM
Gonna add my experience with the o-ringing of the block and use of copper gasket.

Some of you are aware of the turbo car a friend of mine built and I helped some. Well after having the block o ringed and purchasing some ROL copper gaskets, we put the motor together and all is going great. Set the motor in the car and get everything hooked up ie. radiator, turbo plumbing, and all the other little goodies. Anyways we start putting coolant in the radiator and all of a sudden we hear water running and hitting the floor. Look down and see a nice green stream of coolant flowing out from under the car. Upon further investigation we see that the coolant is running between the block and the heads. After tearing the motor back out of the car and removing the heads we find that the gaskets were not making full contact with the head or block. Took the motor completely apart and sent the block to the machine shop to have the o-rings removed and ordered a set of cometic gaskets. So far all is good with the car and has seen 17psi and no head gasket problems.

Maybe this car will make it to the track one day.