Blocks (TOPIC SPLIT from o'ring thread)

[QWKSNKE]

I'm not trying to start an argument either. Just like the wideband issue, it's good tech. I understand the reason your not going to because AFR said not to. But for some reason, I myself wouldn't put much stock in the machinists thoughts because of the mexican block thing. If he had never heard of a mexican block and said so, then that's cool. But if he hadn't heard of one and then said it wasn't any better, then that's where I have a problem. Just looking at one for a few seconds, and the differences/advantages are extremely obvious.



On the mexican block issue.... (since it keeps popping up)

I believe his point was rather than go spending unecessary money machining a mexican block, his OPINION was put that money towards a dart block or equivalent. Mex block is only worth a few hp over OEM. (I am guessing 100 or so)That is all.

I do trust the machine shop I use quite a bit. If I didn't, I wouldn't use them. (or pay the high ass labor) They put out a lot of performance engines a year. Now, am I solely going to listen to him, of course not. That's what I have Edgar's phone # for :D


Did I purchase the Cometics because of my preferred machinist? Yes. I also purchased them because Edgar told me to 3 months ago. And I also purchased them because AFR told me to even though Cometic didn't recommend it.

:nice:

[NightHawk756]

On the mexican block issue.... (since it keeps popping up)

I believe his point was rather than go spending unecessary money machining a mexican block, his OPINION was put that money towards a dart block or equivalent. What? You had to machine your stock block. Machining a mexican isn't any more. I don't understand the "unecessary money machining a mexican block" part. :shrug: And as far as cost, a dart block is going to cost you in the neighborhood of $2000. How does that compare to $300 or so that I have seen mexican blocks sell for, for more peace of mind. :think:
Mex block is only worth a few hp over OEM. (I am guessing 100 or so)That is all. Well, that's funny. Because everyone on Turbomustangs that's used mexicans for several years can't even put a hp rating on them because no one has split one yet. There's even one guy that has gone 8's with one, went way lean, major problems, pulled it out and the block was still fine. It's now back in a 9 second car. Sounds like more than 100 over OEM to me. :shrug:

Did I purchase the Cometics because of my preferred machinist? Yes. I also purchased them because Edgar told me to 3 months ago. And I also purchased them because AFR told me to even though Cometic didn't recommend it.:nice:I never said anything about the use of cometics. As a matter of fact, I said they may be fine. I've heard nothing but good things about these gaskets. My problem was with not o-ringing the heads and why. ;)

[NightHawk756]

Gonna add my experience with the o-ringing of the block and use of copper gasket.

Some of you are aware of the turbo car a friend of mine built and I helped some. Well after having the block o ringed and purchasing some ROL copper gaskets, we put the motor together and all is going great. Set the motor in the car and get everything hooked up ie. radiator, turbo plumbing, and all the other little goodies. Anyways we start putting coolant in the radiator and all of a sudden we hear water running and hitting the floor. Look down and see a nice green stream of coolant flowing out from under the car. Upon further investigation we see that the coolant is running between the block and the heads. After tearing the motor back out of the car and removing the heads we find that the gaskets were not making full contact with the head or block. Took the motor completely apart and sent the block to the machine shop to have the o-rings removed and ordered a set of cometic gaskets. So far all is good with the car and has seen 17psi and no head gasket problems.

Maybe this car will make it to the track one day.I've never been a fan of 0-ringing a block. I like the idea of actually having an 0-ring in the head that seats into the gasket when torqued. ;)

[coupe]

There's even one guy that has gone 8's with one, went way lean, major problems, pulled it out and the block was still fine. It's now back in a 9 second car. Sounds like more than 100 over OEM to me.

The stockers can hold around 600 hp (which will take you into the 9's in a mustang). Of course, you can make one lay down more power, but not for long (Blake did 637hp/750tq)...I think it's safe to say the Mexican is capable of 100-150 more hp than a XXX or YYY roller block...that would put it around 750, which can get a mustang into the high 8's.

As far as the R302 or Dart as a comparison? :rofl:
They can be abused with 1500 hp and not flinch. Just my .02.

[NightHawk756]

The stockers can hold around 600 hp (which will take you into the 9's in a mustang). Of course, you can make one lay down more power, but not for long (Blake did 637hp/750tq)...I think it's safe to say the Mexican is capable of 100-150 more hp than a XXX or YYY roller block...that would put it around 750, which can get a mustang into the high 8's.

As far as the R302 or Dart as a comparison? :rofl:
They can be abused with 1500 hp and not flinch. Just my .02.Well, maybe you've been around some 600hp mustangs in the 9's but I haven't. Are you talking fwhp or rwhp? Because if your talking rwhp then your at a stock blocks splitting limit and on borrowed time. And if your talking about rwhp, then look at several guys here with over 500 rwhp that are still in the 12's. It's not as "common" as you make it sound. Yes, I DO see guys with stock blocks in the 10's but not very many at all in the 9's. And I've never seen one in the 8's.

Also, coupe, I wasn't comparing hp capabilities between the dart and mexican. I was comparing cost because his machinist said to put the money towards a dart. When the only other money other than machining the stocker would have been in the $300 neighborhood for a mexican rather than $2000 for a dart. ;)

[coupe]

True on the money thing. It's expensive to go the R or Dart route. But what do you have in the Mexican with Machine work? I think you could certainly find used R's or Darts for $1000...pretty much already machined too. I'm just one of those who has waited (and passed on a couple mexican blocks) and I think finally, my wait is over :evil: .

[NightHawk756]

True on the money thing. It's expensive to go the R or Dart route. But what do you have in the Mexican with Machine work? I think you could certainly find used R's or Darts for $1000...pretty much already machined too. I'm just one of those who has waited (and passed on a couple mexican blocks) and I think finally, my wait is over :evil: .The thing your missing coupe is that we are talking about building a stock block or building a mexican block. So, with that being said, the machine cost is the same for both, so you exclude that. The only "extra" money you spend is what you get a mexican block for. I've seen them for as little as $300 and as much as $500. So, if your wanting to keep your project in the 600rwhp range and never plan to go higher, then a mexican is perfect. Because it gives you that 150-200 more hp area for peace of mind and you spend about a $1000 less than a dart if take out machining. ;)

[Italian LX]

The thing your missing coupe is that we are talking about building a stock block or building a mexican block. So, with that being said, the machine cost is the same for both, so you exclude that. The only "extra" money you spend is what you get a mexican block for. I've seen them for as little as $300 and as much as $500.
You seemed to have left out the $400 lifters that is required for a non-roller motor. :P

[NightHawk756]

You seemed to have left out the $400 lifters that is required for a non-roller motor. :POOps, I forgot about that part. Ok, it's $600 cheaper than a dart if you spend $500 for the mexican. :jester: Or as much as $800 cheaper if you get your mexican for $300 as I'm seeing alot of lately. ;)

[Italian LX]

OOps, I forgot about that part. Ok, it's $600 cheaper than a dart if you spend $500 for the mexican. :jester:
Actually, the difference between the mexican and the dart would still be the same since those lifter would be needed for a Dart block. I was pointing out how much more the mexican would be over using a stock block.

[NightHawk756]

Actually, the difference between the mexican and the dart would still be the same since those lifter would be needed for a Dart block. I was pointing out how much more the mexican would be over using a stock block.Yeah, I thought that you still needed them for the dart but wasn't positive. Just thought you knew and were saying you didn't have to.

OK, anyway, you still would be getting the peace of mind of a block that could handle 150-200hp more and still didn't have to pay $1000 more for a dart that you would never use to it's potential. And could use that $1000 elsewhere. ;) Does that sound better Brian? :jester:

[joker]

OK, anyway, you still would be getting the peace of mind of a block that could handle 150-200hp more and still didn't have to pay $1000 more for a dart that you would never use to it's potential.

Yes, but in the scheme of building a car 1k really isnt that much. Plus you would have the knowledge and piece of mind that the dart block will handle it if you decide to really crank up the power later on. If you did decide you needed a dart or r302 block later on, you would have the extra cost of the block, more machine work, and the cost of pulling the engine and changing the rotating assembly.

But it's not like any of us would put alot of money into building a car then decide we want more power down the road. :jester:

[coupe]

True Joker...in fact, I can't think of anywhere else I'd rather put an extra $1000 into than the motor. It's the heart & soul of the car.

[QWKSNKE]

:hijacked:

Figures that NOW (since I am not in the market) you can buy a MEX block for $300. When I was starting mine cheapest bare block I could find was $600. Couple that w/$400+ on the funky lifters and I would have had $1k in the block before my machine work. Which to ME is not worth it. If I was going to spend that I would have bought a used r or dart block.

Frankly, I am not worried about splitting my OEM block. I only personally know of someone (Barry) who has split OEM blocks and he never did it on conservative power. It was always when he was pushing OVER 20psi of boost which in his application was probably in the neighborhood of 650-700 rwhp.

[NightHawk756]

Yes, but in the scheme of building a car 1k really isnt that much. Plus you would have the knowledge and piece of mind that the dart block will handle it if you decide to really crank up the power later on. If you did decide you needed a dart or r302 block later on, you would have the extra cost of the block, more machine work, and the cost of pulling the engine and changing the rotating assembly.

But it's not like any of us would put alot of money into building a car then decide we want more power down the road. :jester:
No the whole point is the fact that Lee doesn't want to go that high with his Cobra. I was simply pointing out that he's in that area of a stock block splitting right now. And without spending the extra $1000 for the dart, he could get the mexican of which would have the power potential that he wants to stay in and be safe. If you don't plan to have 1000hp, then why spend the money on the dart?? That's my point. ;)

[QWKSNKE]

No the whole point is the fact that Lee doesn't want to go that high with his Cobra.

:werd:

The next project will have an R or dart block. Its gonna need it :evil:

Street tune will be left around 525rwhp. We'll see what the race gas tune nets us :D

[NightHawk756]

:hijacked:

Figures that NOW (since I am not in the market) you can buy a MEX block for $300. When I was starting mine cheapest bare block I could find was $600. Couple that w/$400+ on the funky lifters and I would have had $1k in the block before my machine work. Which to ME is not worth it. If I was going to spend that I would have bought a used r or dart block.

Frankly, I am not worried about splitting my OEM block. I only personally know of someone (Barry) who has split OEM blocks and he never did it on conservative power. It was always when he was pushing OVER 20psi of boost which in his application was probably in the neighborhood of 650-700 rwhp. Yeah, there are guys though, that are splitting them everyday on turbomustangs. And most of them are in the 550-600rwhp range. Now don't get me wrong, some are making that and haven't split. But, every one of them are gritting their teeth waiting on it to.

And me, well, I just couldn't find a used dart or r-block. There didn't seem to be any out there when I was looking. And it makes sense, it's the best block out there. Most people just put it in the corner of the shop if not using it and keep it for later. That's why I was always referring to a new dart block. Because I just don't see used ones for sale that often.

[NightHawk756]

:werd:

The next project will have an R or dart block. Its gonna need it :evil:

Street tune will be left around 525rwhp. We'll see what the race gas tune nets us :D:hmm: is this gonna be the GT project?? :metal:

[QWKSNKE]

:yup:

[NightHawk756]

:yup:Saaaweet!! :banana:

So, is it going to be blown, turbo'd or nitrous? Or what combination of two? :popcorn:

[joker]

Might be good to split part of this into a block thread.

Anyways, while we are talking about blocks, how do the sportsman blocks compare to the others like the mexican and stock blocks? Judging by thier price of around $900 I know the arent as good as the dart and r302 stuff. I was wondering also if you still have to have the different lifters with a sportsman block. If they hold up as well as a mex block and dont need the special lifters then that would put them at about the same price as a mex block really.

[coupe]

Sportsman's nice too; alot like the Mex. They really don't look all that much better than the standard A50 roller. They're a little better material & a little thicker in places. Still around a 700 hp limit.

[Wickd GT]

Might be good to split part of this into a block thread.

Anyways, while we are talking about blocks, how do the sportsman blocks compare to the others like the mexican and stock blocks? Judging by thier price of around $900 I know the arent as good as the dart and r302 stuff. I was wondering also if you still have to have the different lifters with a sportsman block. If they hold up as well as a mex block and dont need the special lifters then that would put them at about the same price as a mex block really.

Not even close to a Mexican block except for the mains, but they are very close to the stock one, they come with the provisions for stock lifters as the stock roller blocks, and one piece cranck seal. I rather paid for an R block or Dart than pay 900.00 then add the machine work. I split 2 stock blocks in half, then got a Mexican block, but sold it and waited for the right time to get the R block. I spent around 500.00 in machine work, due to been good freinds with my machinist, but a diff machine shop will cost around 900.00 to 1000.00 in machine work. If is to be stroker, has to be clearance, then align the mains, deck, bore it, torque plate honing, and the lifter bores have to be honed a bit too. The bottom extra water holes need to bee plug, so a standard head gasket can be use.

Edgar

[NightHawk756]

Not even close to a Mexican block except for the mains, but they are very close to the stock one, they come with the provisions for stock lifters as the stock roller blocks, and one piece cranck seal. I rather paid for an R block or Dart than pay 900.00 then add the machine work. I split 2 stock blocks in half, then got a Mexican block, but sold it and waited for the right time to get the R block. I spent around 500.00 in machine work, due to been good freinds with my machinist, but a diff machine shop will cost around 900.00 to 1000.00 in machine work. If is to be stroker, has to be clearance, then align the mains, deck, bore it, torque plate honing, and the lifter bores have to be honed a bit too. The bottom extra water holes need to bee plug, so a standard head gasket can be use.

Edgar:werd:

If your looking at a sportsman, then you would be better off getting a mexican. Even the Ford racing catalog keeps dropping the hp rating on the sportsman. The pricing would be close if you add in the expense for lifters with the mexican. But if you find a mexican for around $300 then it may save you some money. And the mexican still has more material in places then the sportsman. ;)

Or if you forsee yourself building a 1000hp monster, then save for the dart or r block. ;)

[joker]

:werd:

The pricing would be close if you add in the expense for lifters with the mexican.

Thats what I was thinking that since the sportsman had provisions for standard lifters it would be a decent deal, if it held the power that a mex block did. However, since the mex block is a bit more beefy, it will probably be what I will go with.

I definiltey wont be building a 1000 hp monster. My main concern is that I dont want to split a block, or put myself in a situation where I am afraid to add a strong power adder without a stronger block. Of coarse I personally have alot of other stuff to deal with before I even worry about an engine. Never hurts to plan ahead though :jester:

[NightHawk756]

Thats what I was thinking that since the sportsman had provisions for standard lifters it would be a decent deal, if it held the power that a mex block did. However, since the mex block is a bit more beefy, it will probably be what I will go with.

I definiltey wont be building a 1000 hp monster. My main concern is that I dont want to split a block, or put myself in a situation where I am afraid to add a strong power adder without a stronger block. Of coarse I personally have alot of other stuff to deal with before I even worry about an engine. Never hurts to plan ahead though :jester:That's why I went with the mexican and the girdle I'm using. That girdle design has to be better than the standard girdles in theory. So, it should be a relatively strong combo.