Decisions, Decisions

[QWKSNKE]

Well I am ready to get started on freshening up the motor in the 93. After telling myself over the last several months that all i needed was a 306 cubic inch setup, I started looking at low compression 331 cubic inch setups again today :doh:

Now I need to start removing the motor and tearing it down so that i can see what all I am going to need.

[joker]

Myself, I would just go with the 331. Are you going to have your stock block bored, or purchase a new shortblock? I was wondering myself how much it would run cost wise just to have my stock block changed to a 331 with forged goodies inside. It's easy to find cost on the parts, it's the cost of all the machine work that scares me.

[banditmwp]

:lookatme:

:poke:

I think you'd be happier with the 331, knowing your lust for speed. :D

[QWKSNKE]

I'm looking at roughly 300-400 in machine work. That's boring, acid dip, cam bearings, and some other bs I can't remember.

[QWKSNKE]

odds are I will stick with a 306. I am afraid my heads would be to small for a 331 displacement and if i up the heads then I will probably be at the same power level as Wall and I will also have to replace my entire fuel system like he did.

[qkjuicedpony]

dont you have 165's


petty is busy building about 16 engines right now so he'll be tied up for a few months.if you are gonna go with the 331 please just go ahead and get a 347 shortblock and be done

[QWKSNKE]

yes I have 165's

[joker]

I'm looking at roughly 300-400 in machine work. That's boring, acid dip, cam bearings, and some other bs I can't remember.

Are you looking at ordering a balanced stroker kit, and doing the actuall assembly yourself?

Also, a weird question about stroker kits. If you install a stroker kit, then your rods are longer than the stock rods. What I am wondering, is the longer your rods are, does that make them more prone to break? For example, if you went with a 347 stroker as opposed to a 306 stroker, would the longers rods of the 347 be more likely to break than the shorter 306 rods? Kind of like how it is harder to break a really short peice of wood or metal than it is to break a long piece. Would the same laws not allpy to rods?I know you would be going with forged rods of coarse, but it is just something I was wondering about.

[QWKSNKE]

yes the rods are longer but i do not believe they are that much longer.

And yes i am planning to buy a balanced kit and assemble it myself.

[qkjuicedpony]

stock rods are 5.090"

347 rods are 5.400"


the 347 will be the better choice in my opinion and it is the same price as the 331 kit....just sell someone your 165's and upgrade the heads too....oh and with either engine you will need to say bye to the cobra intake

[Wall96cobra]

go with the 306

[Sendero]

331 at your boost level would probably push you over that magic block splitting number.

[joker]

stock rods are 5.090"

347 rods are 5.400"


the 347 will be the better choice in my opinion and it is the same price as the 331 kit....just sell someone your 165's and upgrade the heads too....oh and with either engine you will need to say bye to the cobra intake

What is the actuall amount bored for each one? Would boring a stock 302 block to 347 and then throwing a ton of power at it be risking a split block? I am just trying to determine if it is actually worth saving the money and having the stock block rebuilt, or if it would be better to get a dss shortblock.

[qkjuicedpony]

What is the actuall amount bored for each one? Would boring a stock 302 block to 347 and then throwing a ton of power at it be risking a split block? I am just trying to determine if it is actually worth saving the money and having the stock block rebuilt, or if it would be better to get a dss shortblock.




to build a 347 you replace the stock crank with a 3.4" stroke crank.and the rods go from 5.090 top 5.400.then bore it .030 over and notch the block in the given areas and assemble

[qkjuicedpony]

331 at your boost level would probably push you over that magic block splitting number.




:ignorant:


it's all in the tune my 4v brotha

[RTGreen]

Just be a man Lee and drop in a 351w stroked to 393 :roadrace:

Just messin wit ya. I would go with the 331, you can upgrade your heads and fuel system at a later time. :chug:

[QWKSNKE]

:ignorant:


it's all in the tune my 4v brotha


tune doesn't have anything to do with splitting a block

[qkjuicedpony]

tune doesn't have anything to do with splitting a block



so these cars making over 700hp on a stock block can live without a good tune...

[NightHawk756]

Well, I've been in your same boat Lee as you know for some time. Turns out I'll be going with a 331. Just for the simple fact, that I came up on a killer price on a 331 kit with h-beams. The only thing I was looking at was overpowering too. But with the 331, my thinking is, I won't have to run as much boost to get the same hp levels. Hopefully a pound or two less. :jester:

Plus, the fact that the longer rods are actually better for engine life. Since, with the shorter rods, they actually push against the cylinder wall. Where a longer rod pushes more upward then sideways. ;)

[QWKSNKE]

so these cars making over 700hp on a stock block can live without a good tune...

no. my point is that a tune affects piston life not block.

Are you saying the reason Barry has split so many blocks is because of his tune. Of course not, its because of the power level he is at.

General consensud from what I have seen is 550-570 rwhp is where you start splitting blocks. Realistically I believe there are quite a few making more power than that for a few 1000 miles before it actually happens.

Its just whether you want to take that risk and hope that your block can handle the higher hp

[Wall96cobra]

I still say 306 cause it will be cheaper and Lee is not really wanting to go any further with the cobra, the 306 will make more than enough power.

[QWKSNKE]

I still say 306 cause it will be cheaper and Lee is not really wanting to go any further with the cobra, the 306 will make more than enough power.

Yep

[Shorty]

my opinion, FWIW. you are already tearing the tires with the power you have and that is on a bad setup. now add a 331, bigger heads, and 15#'s of boost. it just doesnt sound like a real street friendly setup. i always want my car to be able to take me anywhere without terrible manners. but i am not a pro on this.....

[qkjuicedpony]

you can always go down to 10 psi if needed.but for want you are wanting which is good rods/crank an dpistons id say go with a 331/347 although i'd still do the 347

[Wickd GT]

you can always go down to 10 psi if needed.but for want you are wanting which is good rods/crank an dpistons id say go with a 331/347 although i'd still do the 347

The 347 will give you the torque that the 306 does not have in naturally aspirated engines, now put the boost on the 347 and it will put the hp without any hard effort. Remember, you always will say, I only want to have 500-550 hp, but later on you'll give it more boost to see what it can take, that is when problems shows up. Yes, a bad tune will split a stock block because it will detonate so hard that it will hammer the rods, which it will make the main caps move back and forth and they can't take one to many times of this before it splits. I split 2 blocks, and that was with 10:1 compression and a 180 shot. Another thing, this thing about buying a DSS short block still it is a stock block and I don't care what they do to it, it will split eventually, so do your self a favor, save some money and get you a Dart or an R302 block. There are tons of block been sold in the internet already preped. One of these days I'll sell mine and go with a 414 stroker, LOL.

Edgar

[QWKSNKE]

I understand what you are saying Edgar (and you are proabably right about wanting more hp) but my thinking is, keep the 93 in the 500 rwhp daily driver range and go all out on my 94 GT (boost, 347, and an aftermarket block).

I am ready to get my car running again. Haven't got to drive it on the street in a few months. If a dart or r block 'deal' comes my way in the next few months I will look into it.

[Craig K.]

Lee,

I would just look into getting a DSS short-block. Not that assembling an engine is hard, but their short blocks everything has been checked out, meaning that the block to crank and pistons and so forth have all been machined together.

If you get a kit, you'll still need to get your block machined (crank journals, cyl bores) to that kit. I would think that this would be more than 300-400.

This is of course to get a well machined rotating assembly, which will help extend engine life and power levels.

If it were me I would look a little more into the 331 for the added cubes.

Also what kind of rods/crank are you thinking of (ie I or H beam rods, cast iron, forge or billet crank)?

Also if you go the DSS route, look into their light wieght forge pistons, this will help you rev a little faster.

Lastly what kind of rings are you looking at, gapless, file fit?

[QWKSNKE]

Well Craig i was but there seems to be a major question in the integerity of D.S.S.'s shortblocks.

it seems that I would be better off buying one of their balanced rotating kits and doing everything myself.

The 300 price was what I was given on 306 machine work. Not the 331 (shouldn't be much difference though.)

[Italian LX]

I would say to go with the 306, only because you're wanting to move on to the '94. If the Cobra was your only project, than I would agree with Edgar on saving your pennies for an R block. Increasing displacement in the '93 will only give you more power over what your street suspension and transmission can't take already. Also, the 306 will be better matched for the heads you currently have.

Take the money you save on the stroker kit and extra machining and spend it on the GT. :nice:

[Craig K.]

QWKSNKE Well Craig i was but there seems to be a major question in the integerity of D.S.S.'s shortblocks.

I hadn't heard about this.

I knew several guys in A-Sedan that were running the DSS 306 engines, and they seamed to last pretty long.

I actually do all of my own assembly, but take it to a friend in southern Illinois for the amchine work, he has a small shop and specializes in road racing stuff.

$300 is a pretty good price. Make sure that when they do the finishing hone that they use a torque plate on the block. Also make sure that you get your crank journals aligned honed.

[QWKSNKE]

Check this out when you have time Craig. flashbang's thread on turbo mustangs (http://www.turbomustangs.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=30374)

[svopaul]

The thread on Turbo Mustangs is the first I have ever heard of complaints with DSS...however I feel that has to be taken with a grain of salt since nobody there has actually bought one new....one guy claims to have taken some apart and another guy seen thier facility....the guy taking them apart is taking apart a used engine...lots can happen from new to that point ;).

I do agree that you cannot get the same type of attention to detail from an assembly line type of shop compared to doing it yourself...I know when I build engines I take a lot of time checking everything over...no production line will do that.

I wouldn't condemn DSS based on an internet board....but the old saying goes, if you want to do something right, do it yourself. Now that the booth is up and running and I have a new office/showroom area....I am going to dedicate some of my old office space to building a few engines again. I get some smokin deals on assemblies from my suppliers so its more cost effective for us to build our own and we can personally sweat the details.

Now I have seen some pretty scary stuff from GROOMS engines out of TN....although the one I saw is still running today...you couldn't pay me to run one of their engines!!! My customer supplied that block and it had marks on the cam bearing at the front that looked like vice grip clamps...they told me some BS line about how they bore the bearing to make sure the cam fits, my response to them was "Not in my world they don't!!"...then there were the rods...supposedly a balanced/blueprinted engine and there were 2 #7 rods....they never restamped them...IF it was actually built as they said!....that was enough for me.

[QWKSNKE]

probably gapless rings Craig

[Craig K.]

Lee, I'll read the thread later when I have the time.

However I can say that I have been to DSS several times, though this was a long time ago, before they got so big.

At that time I was working at a machine shop in central Illinois building mostly Outlaw engines. I was pretty impressed with their operation. At the time everyone that was working there new what they were talking about, and it appeared to me that the work that they did was very good.

But that was then....

[Purple1995Pony]

my vote is 306. you can still make plenty of hp and torque with boost and still be in the safe zone with the stock block.

[coupe]

Joker; the longer rod moves the pivot-point (wrist-pin) out farther from the rod journal...thus slowing the back-&-forth motion of the rod. Rod ratio is the key: the stroke (distance from crank centerline) and rod length determine this. The 331 and 347 have the same size rods, but the 331 stroke is 3.25 vs. 3.40 and thus, it has a better rod/stroke ratio. A really nice ratio is seen in a long-rod 302 or even a 316...a 3.1" stroke with a 5.4" rod. Longer IS better... ;)

[Wicked]

no. my point is that a tune affects piston life not block.

Are you saying the reason Barry has split so many blocks is because of his tune. Of course not, its because of the power level he is at.

General consensud from what I have seen is 550-570 rwhp is where you start splitting blocks. Realistically I believe there are quite a few making more power than that for a few 1000 miles before it actually happens.

Its just whether you want to take that risk and hope that your block can handle the higher hp

:Werd:
So you will be running the stock block?

I dunno as far as 306 versus 331. Either way you will have more than enough power to split the block.

[93Cobra#2771]

The reason I can see for the increased displacement would be you would not have to spin the motor as high to get the same HP.

What splits blocks? High rpm/high HP. You can get away with some pretty high HP on stock blocks (550 or so), but when you have to spin it to 6000+ rpm to get that peak, that's when the problems surface.

Drop a 347 in there, limit rpm to 5500-5800 rpm, and grin all day long gets my vote... :D