Race Tire Compund Discussion (SPLIT TOPIC: My new Bling! DUW)

[99LS1]

Unless you're getting Kumho MX, I'd stay away from Kumho. Aside from the mx, none of their tires offer decent traction.

[Sendero]

Unless you're getting Kumho MX, I'd stay away from Kumho. Aside from the mx, none of their tires offer decent traction.

:werd:

As soon as the Kumho's get hot, they get greasy!

[tacbear]

Unless you're getting Kumho MX, I'd stay away from Kumho. Aside from the mx, none of their tires offer decent traction.


The Kumho KH-11's are as good or better than the MX's, but I don't know if they come in the right size for Stang's.

[99LS1]

The Kumho KH-11's are as good or better than the MX's, but I don't know if they come in the right size for Stang's.


I really doubt that. the kh11 is a touring tire, not a performance one.

[svopaul]

Unless you're getting Kumho MX, I'd stay away from Kumho. Aside from the mx, none of their tires offer decent traction.

As soon as the Kumho's get hot, they get greasy!


That's funny because I haven't had that issue and I've been running Kumho 712's on my SVO for years now...including 4 track events at TGPR and I never once felt them get "greasy" or loose....I've also got the 711's on my Super Coupe and have never had them get loose during my "spirited" driving on certain un-named roads :D.

Jason ran TGPR with 711's on his SVO and never complained about them getting loose either.

Maybe you guys weren't running good tire pressure or had old hardened tires....I put mine through the ringer and haven't had any trouble with grip at all. The MX's are a much softer tire and will ofcourse get better traction than the others but I just haven't seen the above complaints during much use on my own cars. :shrug:


Ofcourse maybe Brandon is complaining because he was off road at the time in which case I am sure he didn't get good traction :poke: :jester:

[99LS1]

I run 712s now. I'd say their okay, but I'm not going to buy another set. I could spend a bit extra and get a much better tire.

I ran plenty of air pressure. One event I ran 40 all around, wasn't enough. Next event I tried 45f/40r, car pushed too much, but that was bc too little rear air pressure. Next time I did 45/50, that worked pretty good. Not great, but good enough to get me around. At the end of that event the tire pressure was about the same.

Next time I did 45/50 was on a much longer course, and all tires gained 5psi by the end of the day. The car felt like crap. My fault for failing to check the pressure at the end of each run. I didn't feel the need to bc the last event I did not gain any pressure, but I'll never make that mistake again.


They sell "affordable performance" tires; i.e, okay for the money. 712s are suppose to be "ultra high perf.". I don't care for them, even with my crappy stock suspension I feel that they do not perform.

My wife's t/a has them also, and it's much easier to break them loose than the old stock tires. The older tires were the same size, and had easily 10K more miles on them! Yet the 712s just don't hold it. I bought them when I loved Kumho, now that I actually use them I don't believe they work.

I do not see how kh11s would compare to even 712s, much less the MXs when they're not billed as such.

My next set of tires will probably be Azenis. I'd like Hoosiers but the pavement here is too rough.

[svopaul]

Brandon....I believe you were running your pressures too high. I have never run all my pressures that high at an event. I would normally run my fronts at 40-45 to start and my rears at 30-35 and then adjust as needed....ofcourse mine is a RWD car. I think your high pressures is why you didn't get any traction.

And it is normal for tires to gain pressure with heat...that is common and you must plan for it...I am always checking tire pressures during an event, I even have a Pyrometer so that I can compare temperatures and make adjustments based on that as well.

[99LS1]

I know it's normal, but it's one of those things I forgot to check. I'm not going to pretend I know everything and that was a rookie mistake that I made :D

Max tire pressure for the 712 is 45. If you're running your fronts at 40-45, then I'd imagine that's where mine need to be too. I have a lot more going on with the front wheels so I need to keep the tires aired up so they don't flex too much. And with the fronts at 45, the rears need to be that or higher to keep it from pushing too much. I have a 1" rear sway and if I aire the tires up more it seems to let the rearend step out before the front pushes, which feels much faster. At least that's my theory. I could be wrong, I'm still learning. It seems to work out there but I could try other things.

My susp. has room to grow, as there's a lot I need to do to it.

I'm surprised your running 712s on the evo. It's a prepped car, it should be within your class to run an R compound?

[Scothew]

I think he is running hte 712's on his teal SVO, not the Evolution.

[svopaul]

Yes, the Evo has Race compound Victor Racers on it :D

On the RWD SVOs(street cars) we would run higher pressures in the front to keep from chewing up the sides of the tires and lower pressures at the drive wheels to help keep the tires planted. An AWD car is a different animal and you will need to play with it....also different tires act differently so combinations will vary.

Also keep in mind that the surface you are driving on has a HUGE bearing on how slick your tires feel....many parking lots are sealed which is VERY bad and will be like a slick track. I had the Evolution in an autocross in KY last October and despite me having race compound tires and playing with pressures it was a like a slick track because the parking lot was a sealed one and therefore like glass! I had to change my driving style and go into "drifting mode" my second time out....brakes would just lock up the tires on that slick surface so I started drifting it around corners and use less brake and my times improved. I ended up coming in 4th out of 28 cars...had I not changed my driving to help compensate for the slick surface I would not have come in that good.

[TheJeanyus]

I've never owned a set of Kuhmos before, but my MXs seem to be pretty sticky. Seems like a good tire for the money, though I'm seriously considering 555 RIIs for the back when I buy tires again because I don't hook for shit. It looks to me like the MXs are wearing sorta fast, though. Less than 10,000 on the fronts and they're almost down to the wear bars (yep, bald tires on the dragon again). The wear is even, so I don't think it's a problem with alignment or anything.

[Sendero]

... though I'm seriously considering 555 RIIs for the back when I buy tires again because I don't hook for shit.

Whoa there Cowboy, RII's have a treadwear rating of 60. Normal street tires have a treadwear rating of 250+. Those RII's won't last long on the street.

[TheJeanyus]

Whoa there Cowboy, RII's have a treadwear rating of 60. Normal street tires have a treadwear rating of 250+. Those RII's won't last long on the street.
I don't drive the car daily, so it should be ok. The only reason I mentioned the wear on the MXs is because they are street radials and it seemed like they didn't last nearly as long as I expected. I think I have around 10,000 miles on them. :huh:

EDIT: Treadwear rating on the MX 275/40-17 is 220.

[TheJeanyus]

According to Nitto's site the wear rating on the RIIs is 100.

[Sendero]

According to Nitto's site the wear rating on the RIIs is 100.

Whoops, it is 100. I was looking at the Victoracers (ie gluedonuts). :jester:

[TheJeanyus]

:hmm: Nitto even makes tires for you, Brandon. ;)


Click here (http://www.nittotire.com/tires_mudgrappler.asp)

[99LS1]

:lol: mmm, mud tires :jester:

Yes, the Evo has Race compound Victor Racers on it :D

On the RWD SVOs(street cars) we would run higher pressures in the front to keep from chewing up the sides of the tires and lower pressures at the drive wheels to help keep the tires planted. An AWD car is a different animal and you will need to play with it....also different tires act differently so combinations will vary.

Also keep in mind that the surface you are driving on has a HUGE bearing on how slick your tires feel....many parking lots are sealed which is VERY bad and will be like a slick track. I had the Evolution in an autocross in KY last October and despite me having race compound tires and playing with pressures it was a like a slick track because the parking lot was a sealed one and therefore like glass! I had to change my driving style and go into "drifting mode" my second time out....brakes would just lock up the tires on that slick surface so I started drifting it around corners and use less brake and my times improved. I ended up coming in 4th out of 28 cars...had I not changed my driving to help compensate for the slick surface I would not have come in that good.


Good info. I do remember the very first event I ran this year I had 40/40. The car felt like crap, I could feel the front tires give every time I went into a corner. So I think I'm in the right ballpark :D


mmmm victoracers :drool: :drool:

[tacbear]

I really doubt that. the kh11 is a touring tire, not a performance one.


Go to the "Tire Rack" and compare the ratings for Wet Traction,Dry Traction,etc. The KH11 compares does very well compared to the MX even though it is a Grand Touring tire and beats alot of "Performance" tires. They are the best tires I have ever bought - so far.

[svopaul]

Normal street tires have a treadwear rating of 250+. Those RII's won't last long on the street.


Actually, normal street tires tread rating starts at 160 and goes up. Most Ultra High performance tires are going to be in the 160-260 range.

[99LS1]

Go to the "Tire Rack" and compare the ratings for Wet Traction,Dry Traction,etc. The KH11 compares does very well compared to the MX even though it is a Grand Touring tire and beats alot of "Performance" tires. They are the best tires I have ever bought - so far.

Those are ratings from random people who you don't know their background in cars. They might buy those after their stock tires and think "wow the tread looks nice, it's a performance tire!"

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/gr_tour_summer_c.jsp

There's a reason why it's compared to other touring tires. Bc it's a tire designed to ride well, have good life, and allow for some spirited driving.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/max_perf_charts.jsp

And there's a reason the MX is in a performance category.

The treadwear rating is too high and there's a reason Kumho stuck it in the touring category, bc it might have some performance compared to decent tires, but it can not be compared to the MX & company. The MX is more of a tire designed strictly for performance and occasional street use, not a daily driver tire with some performance.

It might beat some tires that try to pass off as performance tires, but not any real one.

[Sendero]

Actually, normal street tires tread rating starts at 160 and goes up. Most Ultra High performance tires are going to be in the 160-260 range.

Here is the scale I base tires off of:

0-100 - Racing Tire
101-250 - Performance Tire
250+ - Street Tire

I certainly don't expect a tire with the treadwear rating of "performance" to last very long. Street tires, in my definition, are something you throw on a car to tool around town in and keep from breaking your bank account.

[Craig K.]

:hijacked:

Now if I only knew how to split the topic of this thread....

[Italian LX]

:hijacked:

Now if I only knew how to split the topic of this thread....
Done. :nice:

[svopaul]

Here is the scale I base tires off of:

0-100 - Racing Tire
101-250 - Performance Tire
250+ - Street Tire

I certainly don't expect a tire with the treadwear rating of "performance" to last very long. Street tires, in my definition, are something you throw on a car to tool around town in and keep from breaking your bank account.

I disagree on the definition.....my discussion had zero to do with how long a tire lasts...that is based on treadwear and I too would not expect 50K miles from a "performance" tire. A Street tire by definition is a tire that meets DOT requirements for use on a public road....meaning that it will work well with standard weather issues such as rain and hot dry days....a tire to "throw on a car to tool around town in and keep from breaking your bank account" is something found at walmart as an off-brand or at a used tire store :D

As an example....I have a set of Yokohama AVS intermediates that have a treadwear rating of 160...they are a fantastic street tire but also do very well on a road course...even in bald form they make good low budget race tires...but the tread design is good enough for even a couple inches of snow.

[Sendero]

I disagree on the definition......

Well then we will have to agree to disagree. "Street tires" are not something you throw on the car and head down to the local road course. No matter how you interpret the definition you'll never here somebody say; "I've got to head to the house and throw on my street tires before we go to the track."

As far as the semantics of a "Street tire" being DOT approved, its just that, DOT approved. Nitto drag radials are DOT approved. Mickey Thompson drag radials are DOT approved. I consider these "racing" tires even though they are DOT approved for use on public roads. All of these have a treadwear rating below 160, too.

Hell, Kumho ECSTA V700 are DOT approved with a treadwear rating of 50? But I would NEVER consider that a street tire by any stretch of my imagination.

So if you want to call and DOT approved tire a street tire, then any that meets the DOT specs is a street tire no matter its treadwear. But you sure won't catch me calling Quicktime Pro's or Victoracers "street tires". :nice:

[Italian LX]

A Street tire by definition is a tire that meets DOT requirements for use on a public road....meaning that it will work well with standard weather issues such as rain and hot dry days....
So, you're saying that ET Streets and Quicktime Pros work well in rain?!?!?!

This all comes down to how you define a certain term. It's just like the never ending "Define what stock means" threads. :rolleyes:

[svopaul]

So, you're saying that ET Streets and Quicktime Pros work well in rain?!?!?!

This all comes down to how you define a certain term. It's just like the never ending "Define what stock means" threads. :rolleyes:

I don't know about those but I do know for a fact that Nitto Drag Radials work pretty well in the rain.....solid rain on a 1000 mile trip from NJ to TN in sometimes extreme downpours....a Friends SVO never once lost traction....so yes, I would consider them "streetable"....though not technically a "street tire".

[svopaul]

Well then we will have to agree to disagree. "Street tires" are not something you throw on the car and head down to the local road course. No matter how you interpret the definition you'll never here somebody say; "I've got to head to the house and throw on my street tires before we go to the track."

As far as the semantics of a "Street tire" being DOT approved, its just that, DOT approved. Nitto drag radials are DOT approved. Mickey Thompson drag radials are DOT approved. I consider these "racing" tires even though they are DOT approved for use on public roads. All of these have a treadwear rating below 160, too.

Hell, Kumho ECSTA V700 are DOT approved with a treadwear rating of 50? But I would NEVER consider that a street tire by any stretch of my imagination.

So if you want to call and DOT approved tire a street tire, then any that meets the DOT specs is a street tire no matter its treadwear. But you sure won't catch me calling Quicktime Pro's or Victoracers "street tires". :nice:

I would agree with a treadwear UNDER 160 calling it a race tire....however you don't call Tire Rack and ask for a "Race tire" when you order a set of tires that have a 160-250 treadwear....do you? :poke: :jester:

My point has nothing to do with the drag tires or tires under 160 treadwear....I just think it's ridiculous to label a tire "not a street tire" just because the treadwear is under 250. Nobody in the industry uses "Race" "Performance" "street" as categories.....you have Race and you have street tires....Then you have subcategories of the TYPE of race or street tire based under those 2 headings.

Since I am in the business of tires I will use some factual backing for my arguement:

Here are the categories used....ALL...EVERY ONE is a "street" tire:
-Max Performance Summer (IE: BFG G Force T/A/ Kumho ECSTA MX)
-Ultra High Performance Summer (IE: BFG G Force T/A KDW/ Kumho ECSTA Supra 712)
-Ultra High Performance All Season (IE: BFG G Force T/A KDWS/ Kumho ECSTA ASX)
-High Performance Summer (IE: BFG Scorcher T/A/ Kumho ECSTA 711)
-High Performance All Season (IE: BFG Traction T/A H&V/ Bridgestone Potenza G009)
-Performance All Season (IE: BFG Radial T/A/ Dunlop GT Qualifier)
-Grand Touring (IE: Kumho ECSTA KH11/ Pirelli P6000 Sport Veloce)
-Standard Touring (IE: BFG Touring T/A/ Goodyear Eagle GA)
-Passenger All Season (IE: Michelin MX4/ Goodyear Assurance Tripletred)
-Winter (IE: Bridgestone Blizzak/ Goodyear Eagle M&S EMT)
-Street Sport Truck Summer (IE: BFG G-Force KDW-2/ Pirelli PZero Rosso)
-Street Sport Truck All Season (IE: BFG Radial T/A/ Kumho ECSTA STX)
-Highway All Season (IE: BFG Radial Long Trail T/A/ Goodyear Wrangler AP)
-Off Road All Terrain (IE: BFG All Terrain T/A/ Goodyear Wrangler GS-A)
-Off Road Maximum Traction (IE: BFG Mud Terrain T/A/ Dunlop Raidal Mud Rover)
-Commercial Highway Rib (IE: Bridgestone 603V/ Michelin XPS Rib)
-Commercial Highway All Season (IE: Goodyear Wrangler HT/ Michelin LTX A/S)
-Commercial Traction (IE: Dunop Radial Rover R/T/ Goodyear Wrangler TD)
-Original Equipment (IE: Goodyear Eagle GS-A/ Bridgestone Turanza ER30)

The category for "race" tires is:
-Competition (IE: BFG G-Force T/A Drag Radial/ Kumho Victoracer V700)

[Italian LX]

I don't know about those but I do know for a fact that Nitto Drag Radials work pretty well in the rain.....
I know the 555R is a good wet-weather tire... I daily drove two sets back-to-back on the coupe for over 30,000 miles. However, I know that anybody that has had the unforunate circumstance to get caught in the rain with a set of DOT slicks will attest that they do not do well on wet roads.

Therefore, your statement about all DOT tires working well with standard weather issues is wrong.

[TheJeanyus]

:gayfight:

[Italian LX]

:gayfight:
Why does every contructive discussion in a technical thread have be a gay fight? :shrug:

[TheJeanyus]

Like you said, it's sort of a pointless discussion like the definition of what "stock" is. I don't think there's any rule set in stone for the precise definition of street tires or race tires.

[svopaul]

Therefore, your statement about all DOT tires working well with standard weather issues is wrong.


Show me were I said "ALL"...:poke: You assumed I meant all....as stated above, my point in this entire post was regarding the tires Nathan specified as "Non street tires" which are tires from 160-250 in treadwear rating.

[svopaul]

Like you said, it's sort of a pointless discussion like the definition of what "stock" is. I don't think there's any rule set in stone for the precise definition of street tires or race tires.

I don't think it is anywhere near the "stock" discussion....and although it's not a "set in stone rule", I go by what the Tire industry uses as standards for tires. Nathan's "opinion" may be different but it's an opinion whereas I consider what the entire industry uses as the actual fact of a tire description.

At this point though it has gotten to the pointless level....I provided facts from the tire industry to show my point on why a 160-250 treadwear tire IS in fact a "street" tire. Unless facts can be shown to the contrary it is no longer a valid arguement and just "opinions". :D

[tacbear]

:agree:

[Sendero]

At this point though it has gotten to the pointless level....I provided facts from the tire industry to show my point on why a 160-250 treadwear tire IS in fact a "street" tire. Unless facts can be shown to the contrary it is no longer a valid arguement and just "opinions".



A Street tire by definition is a tire that meets DOT requirements for use on a public road.


The so which argument are you using, the industry or DOT? Choose carefully because it matters...


I don't know about those but I do know for a fact that Nitto Drag Radials work pretty well in the rain.....solid rain on a 1000 mile trip from NJ to TN in sometimes extreme downpours....a Friends SVO never once lost traction....so yes, I would consider them "streetable"....though not technically a "street tire".


They've got a DOT approved number for use on the street. Therefore it makes them a street tire by your definition above right?


The category for "race" tires is:
-Competition (IE: BFG G-Force T/A Drag Radial/ Kumho Victoracer V700)


DOT approved, so its available for use on the street and a street tire by your definition above.

[Italian LX]

Show me were I said "ALL"...:poke:
Okay, here you go:
A Street tire by definition is a tire that meets DOT requirements for use on a public road....meaning that it will work well with standard weather issues such as rain and hot dry days....

In your statement, you are calling ALL tires that meets DOT requirements a "street tire" and that they work well in the rain... shall I remind you that ET Streets and Quicktime Pros meet DOT requirements.

. . . would you like to retract your statement now? :poke:

[svopaul]

OK, maybe DOT wasn't the best choice....regardless show me how you can justify that a tire treadwear rating of 160-250 is NOT a street tire by YOUR definition? :poke:


You want to harp on DOT and maybe that wasn't my best choice of an example but it was late in the day....you still are dancing around or ignoring everything else I brought up.....therefore making the rest of this a waste of time ;)

Treadwear rating of 160-250 = NOT a "street tire"....I'm waiting...:D

[svopaul]

Come on now Brian and Nathan.....try to Gig me on some trivial unrelated minor detail (DOT) really unrelated to the original issue and avoid the actual issue I am presenting?? :poke: :jester:

[Sendero]

OK, maybe DOT wasn't the best choice....regardless show me how you can justify that a tire treadwear rating of 160-250 is NOT a street tire by YOUR definition? :poke:


You want to harp on DOT and maybe that wasn't my best choice of an example but it was late in the day....you still are dancing around or ignoring everything else I brought up.....therefore making the rest of this a waste of time ;)

Treadwear rating of 160-250 = NOT a "street tire"....I'm waiting...:D

Thats funny. Your gording me into proving to you that X is not Y when I never presented it as fact. This line of reasoning smells of straw man fallacy (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html) considering I never presented my "opinions" as law. Remember, you challenged my reasoning. :jester:

[svopaul]

Thats funny. Your gording me into proving to you that X is not Y when I never presented it as fact. This line of reasoning smells of straw man fallacy (http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html) considering I never presented my "opinions" as law. Remember, you challenged my reasoning. :jester:

No, actually I had a point and you and Brian took an unrelated facet of the conversation as an opportunity to gig me on it....but still not addressing my original point of contention...There are things I didn't present as fact that were brought up...you never said it was "reasoning", you stated it as if it were fact and challenged me on my point of view.....the original point of contention still has not been addressed...rather it is now dragged off topic into something else off topic. There is only one point that I made which to date has never been addressed....If you think I implied "ALL" tires then you implied your definition as factual....same interpretation applies. I brought about facts to support my end of the discussion.....they went unanswered and only the "dot" crap was brought up which if you look back....DOT and drag tires were never part of my points of contention.

Just looking for a discussion here that stays on track and on topic....which apparently is a waste of time since it can't happen :D

[svopaul]

and..... :gayfight:


Before someone else does :D


I am done with this topic as it is obviously going nowhere useful anymore ;)

[Sendero]

No, actually I had a point and you and Brian took an unrelated facet of the conversation as an opportunity to gig me on it....but still not addressing my original point of contention...There are things I didn't present as fact that were brought up...you never said it was "reasoning", you stated it as if it were fact and challenged me on my point of view.....the original point of contention still has not been addressed...rather it is now dragged off topic into something else off topic. There is only one point that I made which to date has never been addressed....If you think I implied "ALL" tires then you implied your definition as factual....same interpretation applies. I brought about facts to support my end of the discussion.....they went unanswered and only the "dot" crap was brought up which if you look back....DOT and drag tires were never part of my points of contention.

Just looking for a discussion here that stays on track and on topic....which apparently is a waste of time since it can't happen :D

Yes Paul, DOT approved ratings meant nothing until YOU brought it up as fact in support of YOUR argument. I called street tires what they are IN MY DEFINITION way before the DOT approved comment was made. You even quoted my interpretation, but I wasn't the one trying to prove X wasn't Y.

I don't have to address whether or not 160-250 is a street tire because DOT approved number dictates a street tire, not treadwear rating. Since the guberment dictates which tires are allowed on public roads, I think the guberments classification trumps any industry classification since they won't be the ones that will be paying my tickets. So yes, it was all a pointless debate in what I thought was a useless goal since they are all street tires.

No matter what "classification" anybody puts X in, I am still going to buy "street tires" (by my definition here. (http://forums.qwiksnake.com/showpost.php?p=29482&postcount=21)) based on treadwear ratings. :nice:

[Italian LX]

Come on now Brian and Nathan.....try to Gig me on some trivial unrelated minor detail (DOT) really unrelated to the original issue and avoid the actual issue I am presenting?? :poke: :jester:
Please read my replies in this thread again... the ONLY issue I was arguing is the DOT "all-weather" statement you made. As far as the rest of the crap you guys are going back and forth about, I could care less. Like I said earlier, to me it's just how one defines the terminology. :rolleyes:

[QWKSNKE]

Screw all you hosers. My quick time pros are street tires! :D

I drove to work on them today. Had an SS that acted like he wanted some. I thought to myself, Go ahead Bitch! I'll even give you the move.

[banditmwp]

I drove to work on them today. Had an SS that acted like he wanted some. I thought to myself, Go ahead Bitch! I'll even give you the move.

Oh yeah, I forgot to tell you that Ramsie was trying to run people out on 21 between Lenlock and J'ville tonight. :doh: