maf transfer

[udloose]

does anyone have the right maf transfer for a 73mm C&L meter for 24lb injectors????? Any help will be greatly appreciated :jester:

kevin

[QWKSNKE]

Italian has the one for a 76mm MAF/24's.

If you call C&L they can send it to you.

[Italian LX]

Yeah, the one I got for the 76mm wasn't very close at all. If you like, I can try to dig it up and post it. I can also post my current MAF transfer that I tuned to my 76mm w/ 24# (blue) tube -- my KAMRFs stay very close to zero.

[Italian LX]

Btw, welcome to the board, Kevin. Glad you finally made it over here. :nice:

[Disney Lincoln]

I haev one here, What's your email?

[86GT]

I don't have the curves with me but you can download the EA form:
ftp://eecanalyzer.homeip.net (ftp://eecanalyzer.homeip.net/)

It has all of C&L transfer functions.

[udloose]

thanks guys, Maybe I can do some more tuning if I get the correct maf transfer.....I called C&L to get it from them...they told me I was wasting my time on the tweecer, so that's why I am looking for the transfer on here.....hope C&L is wrong.....


Kevin

[Disney Lincoln]

Good reason to not use a C&L meter. They know that the junky muthers cant be tuned for worth a hoot, so they try to blame everything on the tuner. Get a Professional Mass Air Systems (formerly Pro-M) meter and be done with it.

[86GT]

I hate to disagree with you, but C&L meters are just as good in my opinion as the Pro M versions. The only reason that C&L is stating that it is a waste of time is because:

C&L has designed there meters to run leaner at the upper end of the curve to gain HP and TQ. If you simply but the actual flow numbers in you will have esentially taken out the built in leaness of their design. You will have to lean out the fuel mixture to acomplish the same thing. To C&L that is a waste of time.

The only thing that I believe all the MAF manufactures are leaveing out is that by calibrating MAF's to a particular injector size screws the load calculation up that the EEC calculates. The larger the injector size and matched MAF, the larger the load calculation error is. This is more evident on the 94-95 mustangs since they are very load dependent.

By placing the actual flow numbers in the load calculation will be acurate and then the AFR can be adjusted for optimal HP and TQ. I believe that if done correctley the HP/TQ can very well exceed that of the MAF manufactures claims.

Just my opinion

[Shankin]

Good reason to not use a C&L meter. They know that the junky muthers cant be tuned for worth a hoot, so they try to blame everything on the tuner. Get a Professional Mass Air Systems (formerly Pro-M) meter and be done with it.


I agree. I have tuned many cars on the dyno and the pro ms are much better.

[QWKSNKE]

The only thing that I believe all the MAF manufactures are leaveing out is that by calibrating MAF's to a particular injector size screws the load calculation up that the EEC calculates. The larger the injector size and matched MAF, the larger the load calculation error is. This is more evident on the 94-95 mustangs since they are very load dependent.



But this is corrected in the sea level load tab, right?

[86GT]

yes!!!. You can correct for the problem if you have a tuner and use the sea level load function but the better way would be to simply plug in the correct flow number for the given MAF. Most of the reasons people uses the sea level load function is to correct for forced induction systems.

[QWKSNKE]

. Most of the reasons people uses the sea level load function is to correct for forced induction systems.

:yup:

[86GT]

I forgot to add:

Most of the reasons people uses the sea level load function is to correct for forced induction systems and not injector size and MAF matching.

[Disney Lincoln]

Oh yeah.... I forgot people use these things on NA motors too. Well, IMHO C&L"s suck on NA motors too, so I guess they run the gamut with me on parts suckage.

This isn't some uncalled for BS partts callout. This is from a guy that has tried VERY VERY hard with these meters. I took one car ALL THE WAY TO HUNTSVILLE to get them to help me "tune" the car on thier chassis dyno. The result? Idiots lost 6hp/8ft-pd and car drove worse. Swapped on a Pro-M 80 once I limped the POS 600 miles back home and it runs like a champ. I have probably used 15-20 C&L meters in teh last few years. While I did get a couple to work OK on near stock applications with small injectors, none of the ones with an injector over 30#/hr would run worth a hoot. Boosted? Fuhgetaboudit.

But if they work for you, by all means, continue to kick ass with those meters. I'll keep P.M.A.S. in business, and you can keep C&L afloat.

[Dale McPeters]

Well.....I really did not want to get into this battle between Pro-M (P.M.A.S. now) and C&L MAF meters but.....I have also used both over the years and each can be tuned. Sometimes it just depends on how much time you really want to spend on tuning. Most people that tune cars for a living are not going to spend the time to tune a C&L meter if they can install a factory type or Pro-M type meter as each tuner has their own preference. To them time is money and if some, not all, tuners see a C&L installed the price just went up...

I know of quite a few cars out here in the desert that are running the C&L meters including myself, Joe Lynch and quite a few others. Both N/A & with blower/turbo, nitrous setups. I am also running injectors that are way larger than 30lb/hr with a C&L meter at the moment and I do not have any issues. I also have a 4" Pro-M Univer now with 96lb/hr calibration that people kept saying could not be tuned..... :bs:

My point is if you have the time and ability to tune both can be tuned. One thing though on some of the older style C&L meters they may need to be clocked if any kind of elbow etc. is placed in front of them. If not some of them will have to much noise on the maf signal/return line. I also do not get hung up on dyno sheets anymore as to me they should only be used as a reference depending on if it is a street car or full blown race car.......sometimes 5-20hp more on a dyno does not win a race at the track.

Note the above is just my opinion YMMV.

Thanks,
Dale McPeters

[93Cobra#2771]

Well said, Dale.

Myself, I have no personal experience with C&L. However, from what I have seen on various boards, they are more prone to issues with orientation and/or bends in front of the MAF.

Supplied transfer curves are ballpark at best, and the curves usually have to be fiddled with some (of couse, the same can hold true for PMAS as well).

Anyhow, that's my .02 cents worth... :D

[Dale McPeters]

Supplied transfer curves are ballpark at best, and the curves usually have to be fiddled with some (of couse, the same can hold true for PMAS as well).


Again you are correct... :metal:
All the different MAF's will need to be fiddled with to get the correct curve etc. etc. no matter who's meter it is..........some more than others.

[QWKSNKE]

Again you are correct... :metal:
All the different MAF's will need to be fiddled with to get the correct curve etc. etc. no matter who's meter it is..........some more than others.

yeah we fiddled with my Univer a considerable amount to get in

[udloose]

damn....Looks like I started a battle between the maf preferences...Sorry If I started a war....I just need a transfer to work with my meter....LOL

BTW..IS THERE ANY POWER GAINS TO BE NOTICED AFTER I GET THE MAF XFER RIGHT??? OR WILL IT JUST DRIVE/RUN BETTER???...AND DO I NEED TO CHANGE THE HIGH/LOW INJECTOR SLOPES THE 24 WHEN I SET UP THE MAF XFER, FOR IT TO WORK RIGHT.....????? i AM STILL A NEWBIE AT THIS TUNING STUFF....I DON'T HAVE ALOT OF TIME TO PLAY WITH IT.....

KEVIN

[QWKSNKE]

Kevin, have you purchased the EEC Analyzer software from 86GT yet? If not I highly recommend it to you.

Yes you may see some power gains from dialing in the MAF transfer. Your biggest issue will be driveability and possibly some MPG

[Disney Lincoln]

Yes, you should change your high/low injector slopes when you enter in the MAF Xfer's. Try 24 and 29 for starters.

[Disney Lincoln]

Well.....I really did not want to get into this battle between Pro-M (P.M.A.S. now) and C&L MAF meters but.....I have also used both over the years and each can be tuned. Sometimes it just depends on how much time you really want to spend on tuning. Most people that tune cars for a living are not going to spend the time to tune a C&L meter if they can install a factory type or Pro-M type meter as each tuner has their own preference. To them time is money and if some, not all, tuners see a C&L installed the price just went up...

I know of quite a few cars out here in the desert that are running the C&L meters including myself, Joe Lynch and quite a few others. Both N/A & with blower/turbo, nitrous setups. I am also running injectors that are way larger than 30lb/hr with a C&L meter at the moment and I do not have any issues. I also have a 4" Pro-M Univer now with 96lb/hr calibration that people kept saying could not be tuned..... :bs:

My point is if you have the time and ability to tune both can be tuned. One thing though on some of the older style C&L meters they may need to be clocked if any kind of elbow etc. is placed in front of them. If not some of them will have to much noise on the maf signal/return line. I also do not get hung up on dyno sheets anymore as to me they should only be used as a reference depending on if it is a street car or full blown race car.......sometimes 5-20hp more on a dyno does not win a race at the track.

Note the above is just my opinion YMMV.

Thanks,
Dale McPeters


Great post! I am with you 100%.

My problem comes when not everyone wants to put a tuner on their car. In cases like these, when the stock EEC is required to make the translations, the C&L is (generally speaking) unable to match the PMAS's effectiveness. This holds true (IMHO) for NA, or boosted apps. With a TwEECer on board, I can get the C&L to run as well as the PMAS, but it does take a bit longer, and there are generally some other side effects you don't get out of the PMAS.

I think it boils to to one simple phrase..... To each their own...

[udloose]

thanks for the info....maybe If I can get enough support on here, I can make a "stock" motor run 9's...LOL...only need to shave 2 seconds off the
1/4 mile e.t...... :bs:


anyway...I need all the help I can get...anyone wanna volunteer?????? ;)

Kevin

[Dale McPeters]

I think it boils to to one simple phrase..... To each their own...

Yup..... :yup:

[udloose]

how accurate is the curve that is on the EEC ANALYZER website....just curious, is this the specs from C&L, or ir what....

I guess I'll have to fill in a few of the points that are not there huh???

any help will be appreciated...

:banana:

Kevin

[86GT]

Which curve are you looking for specifically? If you download the EEC Analyzer, all of the curves for C&L meters are accurate. I got the curves directly from Lee at C&L. He sent them all to me on a CD. I told him that I wanted to put them in the EEC Analyzer and he was more than willing to give then to me.

I need to double check the ones on the web site. All of those came from a fax that I recieved from C&L when I purchased my meter four years ago. Since then C&L has put everything in electronic format (finally). I don't know if they re-flowed each one or not, but the electronic versions have more points then the original hand written fax.

[udloose]

I went to the EEC Analyzer web site, and got the curve for a 73mm, with the blue tube....24lb injectors...it has a few numbers missing in the curve...I put the xfer in my tweecer today, and it was alittle rich at idle, so I had to lean the numbers under 1.0v out about 5 or 6 percent....car seems to be running fine as of right now.....also, disney told me to start with 24/29 in the high/low injector slopes, and that was off a bit...so now I have 24/31 in the high/low slopes....not sure if it's right...but seems to work for now....

thanks, kevin

do I have to upgrade to the RT version to be able to use the logging thingy...I would like to see just what it's doing...but can't....

[QWKSNKE]

you don't have an RT?

But yes you need the RT to have datalogging capabilities

[udloose]

no lee, I wasn't sure I would need the datalogging capability when I bought mine...I told you I didn't know anything much about this tuning thing..LOL

but, now I know....I guess I will update in a few weeks...in the mean time, is there any use trying to do much more until I get the update????

[udloose]

also, when I try to convert the maf curve from the 10 point to 30 conversion, it won't let me convert to the 30 point...it won't do anything...just stays in the 10 chart....what gives?????

[ujslost]

Let Daniel put you a carb on that thing Neck!

[QWKSNKE]

also, when I try to convert the maf curve from the 10 point to 30 conversion, it won't let me convert to the 30 point...it won't do anything...just stays in the 10 chart....what gives?????

Are you inputting the higher numbers first and working your way down?

So you are not seeing the numbers pop in (or change) the horizontal rows below?