Valve float.....??

[mustangmuscle]

Ok, so this afternoon I'm coming home from work and have to "get on it" a couple of times to try and get out of this damned football traffic that has invaded my fair town.....Bama/Auburn game. Anyway, when I got on it, I heard this really horrible sound from under the hood....sounded just like valve float.....I was like, "What the *#@!@@* is this???? I just spoke to Luke and he said his "new" car was running like crap too. Does this little cool snap have adverse effects on these cars, and if so, why? Or could it be something else? My car has run super smooth from day 1. No problems whatsoever. That is, until today.....

Any ideas???


Thanks,
Chris

[TheJeanyus]

Does this little cool snap have adverse effects on these cars
Mine has never done that. The only thing cold weater does for my car is make it pull about twice as hard as it does in the summer time. :metal: :burnout:

[QWKSNKE]

Valve float in a mod motor?!?!? Is that even possible with stock cams? Seems to me you would have to be turning some major rpm to do that :shrug:

[ChipR4cam]

Could it be pinging. Too much good air, not enough fuel in the tune?


Pinging's not very loud though. Sounds like "shhhtick tick tick tick"

[Scothew]

Valve float in a mod motor?!?!? Is that even possible with stock cams? Seems to me you would have to be turning some major rpm to do that :shrug:


I've heard of stock SOHC 4.6's doing it when spun to like 7k. Never of a 4v though.

[mustangmuscle]

Thanks for the replies!

I truly have no idea what's going on. It may very well not be valve float....thats just what it sounds like.........ching ching ching, etc......when I really get on it and am into boost. And its sluggish...doesnt pull like it should...??

My tuner has sent me a new tune with 2 degrees less timing, to see if that will help. Also says I really need to consider a new MAF. When I got dyno tuned back in the summer, it was really close to pegging. Could this cool snap of weather contribute to the MAF finally surrendering.....???

Chris

[Scothew]

might have. How much is the stock maf rated for?

[TheJeanyus]

I thought the stock MAF was good for about 500 rwhp. You're not making quite that much are you?

[mustangmuscle]

Dyno tuned this summer and got 453rwhp. James said the pumps were close to max and the maf was also pretty close to max according to datalog. Said any little bit more and would have to address both issues......

Also, tune has 23 degrees of timing. Am thinking of trying decreasing that by 2 to see what happens......???

[mj_8]

My pumps were maxed at 470rwhp so that could be possible, I also ran out of MAF about then as well. I would address them anyway to be safe, I really doubt you will stay as is for much longer anyway and the BAP and MAF will already be in place and tuned for.

Could also be bad gas maybe...you run Amoco 93 or comparable?

[QWKSNKE]

Detonation. Better check your plugs today, they are probably burnt up.

[hevymtl]

Mine has never done that. The only thing cold weater does for my car is make it pull about twice as hard as it does in the summer time. :metal: :burnout:


:werd:

[mustangmuscle]

My pumps were maxed at 470rwhp so that could be possible, I also ran out of MAF about then as well. I would address them anyway to be safe, I really doubt you will stay as is for much longer anyway and the BAP and MAF will already be in place and tuned for.
Thanks for your reply, and wise advice!


Could also be bad gas maybe...you run Amoco 93 or comparable?
Yes....only use Amoco 93, without fail.....
Thanks for the advice on the maf and pump situation.....

[mustangmuscle]

Detonation. Better check your plugs today, they are probably burnt up.

Thanks Lee. I hadnt even thought of that. Nowhere around here sells the Denso's. You think the TR-6's would be a wise choice?

[lukem80]

how's it running now?

if you hear the pop-corn ahh pop'n let off.

I froze my arse off in the parking lot last night putting on my MGW shifter.. after I got it on... roads were still wet but I decided to throw caution to the wind and test it out..

I did not miss 3rd gear... even with the tires spinning. speedo was showing 90.. i was going about 40.

thanks for doing the research and telling me to buy this MGW.. PRO 5.0 doesn't have chit on this one. :metal:

[mustangmuscle]

how's it running now?

if you hear the pop-corn ahh pop'n let off.

I froze my arse off in the parking lot last night putting on my MGW shifter.. after I got it on... roads were still wet but I decided to throw caution to the wind and test it out..

I did not miss 3rd gear... even with the tires spinning. speedo was showing 90.. i was going about 40.

thanks for doing the research and telling me to buy this MGW.. PRO 5.0 doesn't have chit on this one. :metal:

Funny thing....took the car out just now....much warmer than the other day....and no pops, no pings, nothing.....pulled pretty damned hard, too....
I'm lost....I had no idea that the temp outside would affect the car like this. Isnt the MAF and all that electronic computer crap supposed to make adjustments for weather....?????!!!!!

Glad the shifter came in.
Told you it was nice.;)
Now that makes me 2 for 2......FIPK and the MGW. Wanna try 3 for 3? I'm ready when you are!!!!:metal:

[QWKSNKE]

Chris, I would still take time to pull the plugs and check them.

Yes the MAF should compensate for the cooler air BUT if you are close to pegging the meter then the cooler air could push you to the point where you are pegging it.

Or at least it makes sense to me :D

[TheJeanyus]

Chris, I would still take time to pull the plugs and check them.

Yes the MAF should compensate for the cooler air BUT if you are close to pegging the meter then the cooler air could push you to the point where you are pegging it.

Or at least it makes sense to me :D
:agree:

[mustangmuscle]

:agree:

Thanks Lee and Joseph. I agree also. Got the TR6's this am. Gonna wait till the car is stone cold before putting them in. Luke's suggestion....so the plugs wont become welded to the aluminum heads....thanks again, Luke!

James did say when he was tuning the car that just a little more hp would put the MAF over the edge and would be time for a MAFia and/or BAP to make things safe. I know most say that things are cool until the 500rwhp mark is reached, but in some cases, like mine, the 450rwhp range is the gray area. So, I guess it makes sense......colder air = more hp = pinging and clanging under the hood. I shoulda probably titled the thread "Pinball machine under my hood" instead of 'valve float'....but hey, I'm a moron without a vocabulary...what can I say:jester: pardon the pun...LOL

I am thinking of waiting on installing the new tune...the one with 2 degrees less timing. Dont want to leave 20-30 hp in the old Predator. But, then again, a blown motor isnt cool either. Will see what the old plugs look like and go from there.....am going with a 0.030 gap on the TR6's and hope things get better....

Thanks again to everyone for the great input! You guys are awesome!

Chris

[TheJeanyus]

:nice: Hope you get it sorted out.

[mustangmuscle]

Update....

Well, filled up with a fresh tank of gas, along with some octane boost. Took a couple of blasts down the road....not a hint of anything....no pinging, no chinging, changing.......just hauling some serious ass!!!:metal: Maybe it was just some bad gas....I dont know. Am just glad she's running better.

Still gonna change out the plugs. If nothing else, to take Lee's advice and check on the status of the stockers that endured all that knocking.....

Thanks again!
Chris

[banditmwp]

am going with a 0.030 gap on the TR6's and hope things get better....


Don't forget to dab a little anti-sieze on the threads of the plugs....unless you want to rethread your heads next time. ;)

[mustangmuscle]

Don't forget to dab a little anti-sieze on the threads of the plugs....unless you want to rethread your heads next time. ;)
Thanks for the advice....

I cant tell you how many times I've asked the infamous "anti-seize" question. And, gotten a different answer every time. Ford did NOT use it at the factory and recommends 15 ft/lbs on the plugs. And these heads only have 4 threads for the plugs....not much to for holding things where they need to be. The last run heads have 9 threads and better cooling....sure wish I had those on the car!!!

I'm hearing both sides of the story....use it and dont use it. Horror stories of plugs being launched out of the heads have been posted from guys who used the stuff. While others have said just what you mentioned.....dont use it and you'll be sorry later.....Then comes the question.....if you use it...how much torque to put on the plugs.....since anti-seize if now being introduced where it wasnt before....just how tight do you spin these things in....??? Again, many answers to this question.....and all of them different.....

I would appreciate any insight into this query that I could get.....

Thanks in advance!
Chris

[banditmwp]

Thanks for the advice....

I cant tell you how many times I've asked the infamous "anti-seize" question. And, gotten a different answer every time. Ford did NOT use it at the factory and recommends 15 ft/lbs on the plugs. And these heads only have 4 threads for the plugs....not much to for holding things where they need to be. The last run heads have 9 threads and better cooling....sure wish I had those on the car!!!

I'm hearing both sides of the story....use it and dont use it. Horror stories of plugs being launched out of the heads have been posted from guys who used the stuff. While others have said just what you mentioned.....dont use it and you'll be sorry later.....Then comes the question.....if you use it...how much torque to put on the plugs.....since anti-seize if now being introduced where it wasnt before....just how tight do you spin these things in....??? Again, many answers to this question.....and all of them different.....

I would appreciate any insight into this query that I could get.....

Thanks in advance!
Chris

I've always used anti-sieze and used my "calibrated elbow" to gauge the torque. I only use a torque wrench on wheels. :huh:

[mustangmuscle]

I've always used anti-sieze and used my "calibrated elbow" to gauge the torque. I only use a torque wrench on wheels. :huh:

Ok, how much torque would you, or your calibrated elbow recommend using??:chug:

[banditmwp]

Ok, how much torque would you, or your calibrated elbow recommend using??:chug:
Tight...i would say about 18-20 lbs/ft if ford recommends 15.

[mustangmuscle]

Tight...i would say about 18-20 lbs/ft if ford recommends 15.

Thanks alot. I will be using my "elbow meter" when tightening these things down......hope mine is up to spec.....LOL

[UA2k1GT]

you were just buring off some built up carbon in the engine :jester:

[Italian LX]

. . . I only use a torque wrench on wheels. :huh:
I sure hope that you have never done a head swap. :shake:

[mustangmuscle]

Ok.....TR6's are in! Old plugs arent melted.....whew!!!! They could look better, also could look worse.....so I guess it all evens out in the wash.....
Took it out for a litle spin, wound it up pretty high was really singing.....no pinging, clanging, etc. I'll keep my fingers crossed and Ive already "knocked-on-wood" for luck....maybe the car will behave now, and not scare me to death making crazy noises....

Thanks to everybody for all the input/help/info. As always, you are all too willing to help. U guys ROCK!!!:metal:

Chris

ps. I did use a dab of anti-seize. The plugs were really hard to get out...could actually hear metal-on-metal squeaking while they were being untightened.....ouch! Hopefully, they wont be so hard to get out next time.......Thanks Matt!!!

[banditmwp]

I sure hope that you have never done a head swap. :shake:

No, but I'll use one when I do. :yup: I fell off a turnip truck, but it wasn't LAST night. :D

[latemodelracer2]

just a FYI but pull your plugs in about a week and look at them. octane boost will leave a residue on them. also thats a lot of timming you probley wouldnt loose much pulling 1 degree of timming and the safety factor youd be adding would be well worth it.

also do you have dual program chip? if not then what brand chip do you have? if you have sct get james to add your current program but with 3 degrees less timing for a winter prgram. be well worth it in the end

[QWKSNKE]

just a FYI but pull your plugs in about a week and look at them. octane boost will leave a residue on them. also thats a lot of timming you probley wouldnt loose much pulling 1 degree of timming and the safety factor youd be adding would be well worth it.

also do you have dual program chip? if not then what brand chip do you have? if you have sct get james to add your current program but with 3 degrees less timing for a winter prgram. be well worth it in the end


yeah I was kinda thinking that the timing was a little high but unsure on what boost he is actually seeing BUT at the same time you should be able to run more timing in cooler weather because cooler air charge would reduce detonation (or it seems to me) High cylinder temperatures cause detonation. This can be a result of running lean (which could be from pegging MAF due to the cooler air), timing, or hot air intake charge.

For reference I am running 20 degrees of total timing with my 9:1 compression, intercooled 14 psi pushrod motor

[mustangmuscle]

just a FYI but pull your plugs in about a week and look at them. octane boost will leave a residue on them. also thats a lot of timming you probley wouldnt loose much pulling 1 degree of timming and the safety factor youd be adding would be well worth it.

also do you have dual program chip? if not then what brand chip do you have? if you have sct get james to add your current program but with 3 degrees less timing for a winter prgram. be well worth it in the end

Great advice and info....Thanks!
I will definitely give the plugs a look in about a week.
James tuned my car via my Predator on his dyno. I have my current tune, as well as the "less timing" tune in my computer. Can load them into the Predator at any time....then, of course, into the car. Will absolutely look into installing the "less timing" tune for safety's sake......not gonna be doing any racing over the winter anyway......

Thanks again!
Chris

[latemodelracer2]

Great advice and info....Thanks!
I will definitely give the plugs a look in about a week.
James tuned my car via my Predator on his dyno. I have my current tune, as well as the "less timing" tune in my computer. Can load them into the Predator at any time....then, of course, into the car. Will absolutely look into installing the "less timing" tune for safety's sake......not gonna be doing any racing over the winter anyway......

Thanks again!
Chris


I would def do that. you wont give up much and have a peace of mind when WOT that itll be fine. wouldnt hurt to hook a voltmeter up to that mass air and have a buddy watch it during a 1-2-3 highway pull.

[mustangmuscle]

I would def do that. you wont give up much and have a peace of mind when WOT that itll be fine. wouldnt hurt to hook a voltmeter up to that mass air and have a buddy watch it during a 1-2-3 highway pull.

Absolutely right! When I was on the dyno at RWTD, James was datalogging and said the MAF was getting close to pegging, and any more HP would necessitate something be done....BAP, MAFia, MAFextender, etc.....Looks like the colder air has definitely brought me to this point. So I'll be spending whatever Christmas money I get towards fixing this.....was going to spend it on mods anyway :banana:

Thanks again for your help and advice!
Chris

[latemodelracer2]

Absolutely right! When I was on the dyno at RWTD, James was datalogging and said the MAF was getting close to pegging, and any more HP would necessitate something be done....BAP, MAFia, MAFextender, etc.....Looks like the colder air has definitely brought me to this point. So I'll be spending whatever Christmas money I get towards fixing this.....was going to spend it on mods anyway :banana:

Thanks again for your help and advice!
Chris

ID def look into the SCT meter. I have the pro m on my truck now and it drives aweful. works fine @ WOT but cruising it is bad. Ive also heard mixed results on the maf xtender and the mafia. BAP is also bad buy two focus pumps and they will run whatever you ever want. And when you do all this you should go ahead and just sent that eaton to steig to put a big smile on your face and make use of all these supporting mods youll add. Stock injectors will still have plenty of room at this level

[mustangmuscle]

ID def look into the SCT meter. I have the pro m on my truck now and it drives aweful. works fine @ WOT but cruising it is bad. Ive also heard mixed results on the maf xtender and the mafia. BAP is also bad buy two focus pumps and they will run whatever you ever want. And when you do all this you should go ahead and just sent that eaton to steig to put a big smile on your face and make use of all these supporting mods youll add. Stock injectors will still have plenty of room at this level

Thanks for your insight and "real-world" experience with these mods. It really helps!

[QWKSNKE]

ID def look into the SCT meter. I have the pro m on my truck now and it drives aweful. works fine @ WOT but cruising it is bad. Ive also heard mixed results on the maf xtender and the mafia. BAP is also bad buy two focus pumps and they will run whatever you ever want. And when you do all this you should go ahead and just sent that eaton to steig to put a big smile on your face and make use of all these supporting mods youll add. Stock injectors will still have plenty of room at this level


there is nothing wrong with the BAP

[latemodelracer2]

there is nothing wrong with the BAP


the stock pumps with the BAP dont last long. didnt on my truck and several others plus i mean you can get the focus pumps for a good price them being a ford part.

[mustangmuscle]

Might it possibly be a problem with running the BAP in a 'daily driver' as opposed to a dedicated race car? That is, as far as being "harsh" on the factory pump set-up???

[QWKSNKE]

the stock pumps with the BAP dont last long. didnt on my truck and several others plus i mean you can get the focus pumps for a good price them being a ford part.


last I checked the focus pumps were pretty pricey (our focus had a fuel pump failure at 15k miles)

I have been running the BAP on my car for a year now (12k miles) and haven't had any problems yet.

[mustangmuscle]

last I checked the focus pumps were pretty pricey (our focus had a fuel pump failure at 15k miles)

I have been running the BAP on my car for a year now (12k miles) and haven't had any problems yet.

Thanks Lee.

[mustangmuscle]

Pulled the TR6's out. Car was idling fine, but would develop a "miss" that became more prominent the higher the rpms went. And, when when the Eaton was making boost the car would sputter and stumble. Needless to say, the TR6's are out and sitting on the top of my tool box. I re-gapped the stockers and put them back in. All seems to be well. Car idles and revs smoothly and boost is once again, awesome!!!! Oh well, I got a set of "almost new" TR6's if anyone is interested.....

I had heard that some cars, for whatever reason, just dont like the TR6's. Since Murphy's Law rules my life, shoulda known that my car would be one of those persnickety ones that just doesnt jeehaw with those plugs. Live and learn.....

Thanks again for everyone's help!

[QWKSNKE]

I use autolites in my blown 5.0

[Wall96cobra]

Pulled the TR6's out. Car was idling fine, but would develop a "miss" that became more prominent the higher the rpms went. And, when when the Eaton was making boost the car would sputter and stumble. Needless to say, the TR6's are out and sitting on the top of my tool box. I re-gapped the stockers and put them back in. All seems to be well. Car idles and revs smoothly and boost is once again, awesome!!!! Oh well, I got a set of "almost new" TR6's if anyone is interested.....

I had heard that some cars, for whatever reason, just dont like the TR6's. Since Murphy's Law rules my life, shoulda known that my car would be one of those persnickety ones that just doesnt jeehaw with those plugs. Live and learn.....

Thanks again for everyone's help!



Yeah my car didn't like TR6's, it had some bad spark blowout. I switched to autolite 764's and never had another problem.

[mustangmuscle]

I know some guys swear by the NGK's, but its certain my car doesnt like them. Funny how it idled fine, then as rpm's went up, it started missing. Then, under boost, the miss was constant. Good thing the plugs are super easy to change...with them going into the top of the head, and all. Even a moron, like myself, can do it....:banana:

Am probably gonna have to ask Santa for some Denso's. Hopefully I've been a good enough boy this year...wishful thinking......probably get my usual....bag full of switches and lump of coal....LOL

[lukem80]

how much do you want for those TR6's? i've give you 2 bucks and a hard time for them? sounds good.. ok

[mustangmuscle]

how much do you want for those TR6's? i've give you 2 bucks and a hard time for them? sounds good.. ok

Hey........this aint frickin' ebay, buddy!!! LOL

Seriously, if you want 'em, you can have 'em.....

Hope they work better in your car than mine.

[lukem80]

Hey........this aint frickin' ebay, buddy!!! LOL

Seriously, if you want 'em, you can have 'em.....

Hope they work better in your car than mine.

ebay rulez... I would've bought my MGW shifter off there.. but there weren't any listed at the time...

how about I'll trade you a lukem80 oil separator 'kit' for your cobra for these plugs.. my stock plugs have 27K on them now so I'll give them a try.

[mustangmuscle]

ebay rulez... I would've bought my MGW shifter off there.. but there weren't any listed at the time...

how about I'll trade you a lukem80 oil separator 'kit' for your cobra for these plugs.. my stock plugs have 27K on them now so I'll give them a try.

You gotta deal there, partner!!!! Sounds like a plan to me....

[TheJeanyus]

Looks like I'm in the same boat as mustangmuscle was less than a year ago.

Took a couple coworkers for a ride tonight, and the cold weather seems to have pushed me past the limits of my MAF (less than 40 degrees outside in T-Town). I guess it's time for that MAF Xtender and a new tune. :banghead:

[rtusnake]

Looks like I'm in the same boat as mustangmuscle was less than a year ago.

Took a couple coworkers for a ride tonight, and the cold weather seems to have pushed me past the limits of my MAF (less than 40 degrees outside in T-Town). I guess it's time for that MAF Xtender and a new tune. :banghead:

I got a brand new maf x:metal: I thought I would need if for my car but I didn't. Cold weather does make the cars pick up alot though

[TheJeanyus]

Yeah cold weather makes a huge difference.

Funny thing is on the way home with just me in the car it ran fine. It stutttered and broke up really bad when I took them for a ride, then when I wa alone it was fine. :banghead: I guess that's what I get for trying to be a show off. :jester:

[mustangmuscle]

Looks like I'm in the same boat as mustangmuscle was less than a year ago.

Took a couple coworkers for a ride tonight, and the cold weather seems to have pushed me past the limits of my MAF (less than 40 degrees outside in T-Town). I guess it's time for that MAF Xtender and a new tune. :banghead:

I feel ur pain, dude....:whip2:

Cooler weather makes a HUGE difference. :banana:

But, the good news is, that the MAF Xtender and tune will solve your problems.:metal:

I've had absolutely no issues, since installing the MAFia and re-tune....

[TheJeanyus]

Weird thing is...30 minutes later with no one else in the car it ran fine. :think:

[mustangmuscle]

Weird thing is...30 minutes later with no one else in the car it ran fine. :think:

I agree......weird
But, mine did the same thing. Goes to show just how temperamental:baby: these cars can be.

[coupe]

It's the "load" calculation. It's definitely going to be different with 400-500 pounds extra on an already portly vehicle. :D

[mustangmuscle]

It's the "load" calculation. It's definitely going to be different with 400-500 pounds extra on an already portly vehicle. :D

Then my tuner shoulda "factored in" the "load" of my fat-ass, AND the difference of colder weather, when he was working on my car. Kinda hard to miss the above mentioned "load". I was standing right beside him while he was tuning.......:jester: