HELP Running lean with 50lbs injectors

[04 Mach1]

I have recently went to a set of 50lbs injectors and now running extremely lean. I got the maf recali for the 50's increased fuel preasure to 43. The car run great with 30's and a FMU. I am sure they are 50's. Is there a way to check the maf voltage? and if there is what should the voltage be with the 50's and the recali? Any Suggestion? :banghead:

[fireguy50]

recal's loose their accuracy the larger (injector) you go.
What is your dyno numbers?
Go back to smaller injectors or use tuning software to get everything sorted out.

[04 Mach1]

Yes I understand the loss cali with the larger injectors. I thought that it would have a problem idling by running rich but with these its running lean thoughtout the dyno pull. I talk to Blake and he runs kinda the same setup with no problem. Is there away to check the maf without sending it in?

[QWKSNKE]

Are you running any kind of tuning software or are you just trying to correct it with fuel pressure? What kind of MAF are you using?

[Scothew]

He's trying to correct through a AFPR and a A9L with no tuning devices. Marc came out to the TMS dyno day, I wish I had gotten the run files from Blake to post up. Maybe I can once Blake gets his internet working again.

Also I think its a Pro-M maf, but unsure as to what model.

[fireguy50]

what were the dyno #'s

[QWKSNKE]

He's trying to correct through a AFPR and a A9L with no tuning devices.


uh oh :shake:

You can't do that now if you are at the power level to require that high of an injector (not safely anyways) Time to pay somebody to tune it or to get a tunable setup

[Wicked]

uh oh :shake:

You can't do that now if you are at the power level to require that high of an injector (not safely anyways) Time to pay somebody to tune it or to get a tunable setup


Right.

Is he still running an FMU?

Just because he has 50's and the MAF is cal'ed, he still has to have some way to increase the injector pulsewidth(software) or increase the fuel pressure(FMU) as the boost comes on. I'm assuming there is boost involved or you wouldn't need 50's.

Only difference between the 30's and 50's is he won't need as much FMU ratio and his base fuel pressure will not have to be as high.

[QWKSNKE]

Right.


Only difference between the 30's and 50's is he won't need as much FMU ratio and his base fuel pressure will not have to be as high.

He could probably run a BAP and do fine but I would still recommend a good tune with it though

[04 Mach1]

Not running any tuneable software. Have a 75mm pro-m bullet. No longer using fmu have regulator with a 1.1 ratio. BAP?????? I have the dyno sheet I'll try to load.

[Scothew]

Btw if anyone is wondering, its a 331 w/ systemmax heads/intake, I think Marc said a custom lunati cam and a vortech s-trim.

[QWKSNKE]

Marc, are you still running the little shot of juice

[Shankin]

I ran 55s and a recal meter with a couple of my set ups with no tuning software with no problems. Get that thing on a dyno and see what is going on with it. A 75 is a small meter for 50s i would think. Usually at that power level you would have a larger mass air.

[QWKSNKE]

. A 75 is a small meter for 50s i would think. .

very true

[Italian LX]

Btw if anyone is wondering, its a 331 w/ systemmax heads/intake, I think Marc said a custom lunati cam and a vortech s-trim.
Is this in an '04 Mach1?!? :think:

If so, what CPU is he running?

[QWKSNKE]

Is this in an '04 Mach1?!? :think:

If so, what CPU is he running?


no he has the blue and silver fox GT. We met him at FFW this year. It was him and the guy in the black 4-eye (Jason I think).

[04 Mach1]

I have since removed the juice. Have installed the new forced induction fuel pump. I have checked for intake leaks. At the dyno the car stayed lean though-out pull. I can let the car idle and it glows the headers red. On the first pull FP 32lbs the A/F was 14.7 increased the FP 8lbs and the A/F was 13.9. The FP never droped off just increased about 3lbs. I'm thinking my meter recal ain't right. Does that make sense?

[QWKSNKE]

no its not right but like Shankin mentioned, I believe you have went beyond the limits of a 75mm MAF. You could try getting them to recal it again (since obviously they didn't do it right to begin with).

by the way, what is your timing set at?


Also, you are not running near enough fuel pressure. Should be at least around 43 psi

[04 Mach1]

I have my cam 4 degrees advanced and the base with the distributor sitting at 6 with the pill out. So you agree my maf is off and it shouldn't be running lean and with my FP set right I should be able to run without a tune, for now.

[QWKSNKE]

I have my cam 4 degrees advanced and the base with the distributor sitting at 6 with the pill out. So you agree my maf is off and it shouldn't be running lean and with my FP set right I should be able to run without a tune, for now.


yeah kinda. I wouldn't pay for the recal again though. If they won't do it for free, see if you can find an 80mm pro-m cal'd for your 50's

[04 Mach1]

Still lost.. I sent the meter back flow test shows that its fine. Think I might have a wiring problem. Correct me if I'm wrong I should be able to hook the 02 up and disconnect the maf and run the car with the o2 with the 50s and it should run stupid rich? Well it will still lean it out. Any ideals.

[joker]

Still lost.. I sent the meter back flow test shows that its fine. Think I might have a wiring problem. Correct me if I'm wrong I should be able to hook the 02 up and disconnect the maf and run the car with the o2 with the 50s and it should run stupid rich? Well it will still lean it out. Any ideals.
What is your fuel pressure at, and what kind of pump are you running?

[04 Mach1]

43psi and the pump is that new holley forced induction intank. Fuel pressure increases with boost 1:1

[04 Mach1]

Even at idle running of the o2 its lean.

[QWKSNKE]

Correct me if I'm wrong I should be able to hook the 02 up and disconnect the maf and run the car with the o2 with the 50s and it should run stupid rich? Well it will still lean it out. Any ideals.

my car pretty much will not run worth a crap with MAF unplugged and will not run at idle.

Even at idle running of the o2 its lean.
Due to fuel tables in the EEC your car will run lean at idle.
I may have missed it somewhere but do you have a w/b 02 setup? Just trying to figure out how you know that you are lean (aside from the dyno trip you mentioned earlier)

Is your Pro-M setup in a draw through or blow through and is calibrated for that?

[QWKSNKE]

Also,

have you verified that your base timing is set where it needs to be. I noticed you mentioning the headers glowing red at idle, can't incorrect timing cause this as well?

[Dale McPeters]

Also,
I noticed you mentioning the headers glowing red at idle, can't incorrect timing cause this as well?

Yep.........;)

[04 Mach1]

Base timing with pill pulled is 6 degrees adv. My cam is 4 degrees adv. Can 4 degrees cause lean condition, but the car idles good. my meter should be back monday guess I need to wait and see what it does. Maybe the recal was bad and they fixed and didn't tell me. I can only hope.

[QWKSNKE]

:think: I thought you already had your meter back. How did you come to the lean conclusion last night if you don't have a meter?

[04 Mach1]

I thought i could run it off of the o2 since the stock computer is 19lbs injector and the o2 will only pull out about 20% of fuel out i thought it should still run rich but i guess i was wrong still lean. Then i put a stock maf on and stuck a 1/4 socket in the opening restricting the amount of air the maf would read and got it running somewhat ok.

[04 Mach1]

Have a Autometer A/F ratio gauge

[QWKSNKE]

Have a Autometer A/F ratio gauge

you can't really go by that. You really need a wide band 02 to be sure on your assumptions

[boss96]

I thought i could run it off of the o2 since the stock computer is 19lbs injector and the o2 will only pull out about 20% of fuel out i thought it should still run rich but i guess i was wrong still lean. Then i put a stock maf on and stuck a 1/4 socket in the opening restricting the amount of air the maf would read and got it running somewhat ok.


That does'nt sound right, restricting the hole in the maf should lean out the fuel. Headers that are glowing read indicate way too much fuel.
Bob

[Dale McPeters]

Headers that are glowing read indicate way too much fuel.
Bob

Bob,

I had this happen on the stock engine that I just put back in
the little blue '91lx, that I had pulled the 347 out of. Cam timing
events will cause the headers to glow red as it will introduce fuel
at the incorrect time.

A bit of the story is that I had someone build me a stock 5.0 engine
as I did not have the time, working to much. They had accidently installed the incorrect camshaft & timing set. It ended up being a speed density cam.
They did not install the F-cam that I had taken to them. Anyway I chased the glowing headers about a day and a half until I pulled the valve covers and checked the timing events of the camshaft myself. Well low and behold it had the wrong cam....

I then installed the correct cam & timing set. No more glowing headers.
Needless to say I got some of my money back from the Ford guru engine builder........

In other words always check everything......

[QWKSNKE]

Marc,

What kind of cam are you running?

[04 Mach1]

It is a lunati 535/545 lift 224/232 duration at 50

[04 Mach1]

I got the maf back today and reinstalled it. I know I can't go off of my A/f gauge due to it not being accurate but it seems to be back to its old self rich lean rich lean. Before it would be rich for about 20 seconds and then berry the gauge lean and stay lean. Thought it was fixed until I started playing with it in the drive. I hit the transbrake and let it lose then hit it with the brake and 2 step seemed to all be there but pulled back in the garage and the headers are now red. Can the 2 step cause this?

[QWKSNKE]

Is the cam a new install? Or have you been running it for awhile. Sounds like timing is off

[Italian LX]

Also, did you degree the cam or is it installed at TDC?

[04 Mach1]

Timing cain set has 3 position straight up 4adv and 4 retard. set at 4adv

[04 Mach1]

same cam

[04 Mach1]

Now ya have me thinking. Before it was dot to dot. When I went to the 50s I also set the cam 4 degrees advance. Thought that would bring my power band down in the lower RPMs. But I just can't get myself to beleive 4 degrees could cause this. Maybe I need to put it back to straight up.

[QWKSNKE]

You have to watch degreeing cams. Lot of the cams out there nowadays will have so much advance or retard built in them.

I know its a pain in the a** but I would put the cam back 'dot to dot'. I gotta feeling its going to fix your problem.

[04 Mach1]

Ya thats what I'm thinking. That gives me something to do tommorow. I'll let ya now what happens I have a sick feeling thats going to be it.

[Italian LX]

Now ya have me thinking. Before it was dot to dot. When I went to the 50s I also set the cam 4 degrees advance. Thought that would bring my power band down in the lower RPMs. But I just can't get myself to beleive 4 degrees could cause this. Maybe I need to put it back to straight up.
Actually, the problem seems to be caused by retarded cam timing. Are you positive that you did, in fact, advance the cam?

I'm with Lee on this -- pull the cover and TDC that cam for now.

[Shankin]

What are you using to measure air fuel. If you are using the autometer with the stock o2 you are pissing in the wind. All that does is tell you if the o2 is switching. Unplugging the mass sir with 50s will make it so rich it will foul the plugs out in no time. Get that thing to a dyno with a real wideband then make your next move. Headers glowing red is usually from Low Initial Timing. Double check the balancer and make sure its not spun or damaged. Keep us informed.

[coupe]

Put that cam in straight-up. It probably has a 112º LSA and a 108º intake centerline? That means it's got 4º advance built in.

Edit: post #1000 :banana:

[Shankin]

degreeing the cam in at 6 degrees advanced will only lower the power curve where it comes in faster. Exaclyy how did you degree the cam? was it with a degree wheel.

[04 Mach1]

No degree wheel. On the cranksproket there are 3 position went with the on that had A on it. I talk to a couple of engine builders and they say 4 degrees either way won't(shouldn't) cause the headers to glow it just moves the powerband up or down. Talked to another person who said I MUST HAVE A CHIP OR PROGRAM. I plan on pulling the cover off tonight, But I agree with shankin if I unplug the meter it should foul the plugs in a matter of seconds due to the 50s and it don't.

[QWKSNKE]

yes a chip or programmer would definitely benefit you but I still think the cam being installed 'straight up' is the root problem.

[04 Mach1]

By straight up I mean dot to dot, thats how it use to be

[QWKSNKE]

By straight up I mean dot to dot, thats how it use to be

sorry I meant to say "by it not being straight up"

[04 Mach1]

Just got done pulling it apart. I was wrong I set the timing dot to dot. So now I'm back to something electrial wrong. Any ideas.

[04 Mach1]

Balancer checks ok.

[QWKSNKE]

:think:

Marc,
How far are you from Weaver?

[04 Mach1]

Right down the road from ya on 431

[QWKSNKE]

Don't know when this weekend but I would like to come check the car out. My weekend is kinda tied up but I'll see what I can do. PM me a number you can be reached at and the best time to call or come by

[Italian LX]

Don't know when this weekend but I would like to come check the car out. My weekend is kinda tied up but I'll see what I can do. PM me a number you can be reached at and the best time to call or come by
Let me know when you go and I'll tag along. :nice:

[04 Mach1]

Thanks ya'll

[QWKSNKE]

Let me know when you go and I'll tag along. :nice:

shooting for Sunday. Pretty sure Saturday is out of the question

[Shankin]

If you installed the cam with the A on the sprocket and the dot on the cam facing one another the cam is still installed straight up. look somewhere else for your problem more than likelly thats not it.

[sinistercoupe]

any fix to this problem? I'm having the same problem...14:1 air fuel ratio at WOT with a blow through bullet calibrated for 50s and the fuel system is huge and the fuel pressure doesn't drop. I talked to PMAS about this and he said after 42s and esp on a blowthrough application its required to go into the EEC and change the maf transfer and injector slopes.

I could go trying to rotate the meter to get it into its sweet spot but thats just a PITA on my car and its kind of ghetto to try and tune a car like that plus i don't have the room to rotate it much either way. I'm picking up a Tweecer this weekend so i can dial this thing in properly.

[04 Mach1]

I to talked to pmas and they said about the same need a tune. I have tried to turn the meter with no luck. Have some people coming to look at it to make sure its not something obvious. I'm looking for a tuneable set up to but not sure witch way to go. What made you decide to go with a Tweecer setup?

[sinistercoupe]

I to talked to pmas and they said about the same need a tune. I have tried to turn the meter with no luck. Have some people coming to look at it to make sure its not something obvious. I'm looking for a tuneable set up to but not sure witch way to go. What made you decide to go with a Tweecer setup?

just found a good deal on one. It takes some learning from what i have read to get familar with it though. I'm willing to learn though in order to have the car tuned properly and not have to rely on pro-m/pmas hit or miss meters and hoping the calibration is right.

[04 Mach1]

Ya I think the meter recal is my problem. I have sent it in twice the second time it come back the car runs (idles) better. I have thought about getting some one to tune it but then what happens when I change the boost it will need another tune. So I guess I'm now looking for a tuneable software set up.

[QWKSNKE]

Marc,
I am going to try and get in touch with you today but it will probably be later on this evening. (4'ish or so)

[QWKSNKE]

update..

Determined (along with Wikd GT and Dale) that the car is running waaaaay fat. Turned the fuel pressure down to 39 psi and bumped the timing up from 0 to 9 degrees initial. Headers quit glowing at idle but still glow when you hold the car at 2800 rpm with no load.

Time for a tune

[sinistercoupe]

on the dyno was it reading lean or rich? i assume they had a WB on it there?

[QWKSNKE]

on the dyno was it reading lean or rich? i assume they had a WB on it there?

car has not been dyno'd with the 50's. With the FMU and 30's it was running lean.

Now, with just the 50's its running to fat

[04 Mach1]

Correction: The car was never dynoed with the 30lbs. It was dynoed with the 50lbs and ran lean. Since the dyno the meter has been re-done and now flow tests ok.

[sinistercoupe]

Correction: The car was never dynoed with the 30lbs. It was dynoed with the 50lbs and ran lean. Since the dyno the meter has been re-done and now flow tests ok.

have you had a chance to get it back on the road or dyno with a wideband? I know you stated earlier you were using some cheapo autometer narrowband a/f gauge.

[04 Mach1]

No dyno since meter's sencond flow test

[QWKSNKE]

Correction: The car was never dynoed with the 30lbs. It was dynoed with the 50lbs and ran lean. Since the dyno the meter has been re-done and now flow tests ok.


oops. I misunderstood the other day. Sorry Mark

[04 Mach1]

no prob. Just want to say thanks for coming over and taking a look.thanks again