Tuning Problems.

[black_nightmare]

I have a 2001 Mustang GT that I recently installed a Procharger P1sc Stage 2 kit on. I am having problems with the tune.

Specs:
Procharger P1SC w/ 10 lbs pulley and 3 core intercooler.
Stock MAF w/ MAFia set on 3.
NGK TR-6 plugs
focus fuel pump
KB Boost-A-Pump
42# injectors
Accufab intake plenum w/ 75mm throttle body.
Magnaflow x-pipe and Magnaflow cat-back
3:73 gears.

The car drives great, but will not put down the power I want. The latest dyno only showed 351 rwhp & 361 rwtq. According to my boost gauge, the car is achieving 11 psi of boost at 6000 RPM.

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/897/prochargerdynomodinttr65gs.th.jpg (http://img511.imageshack.us/my.php?image=prochargerdynomodinttr65gs.jpg)

I data logged the run cooresponding to the blue lines and found

1) According to the my Predator, the MAF_V hits 4.9 volts at 4529 RPM. However, it does not stay that high for long and when viewed in Diablosport's CMR_dat software, it only reaches 848 counts at 4529 RPM and 944 counts at 6000 RPM.

2) The spark advance gets to a maximum of 16.5 degrees at 5700 RPM.

3) The load reading gets to 1.41 at 5700 RPM.


Can anyone give me some answers on why this car is not achieving the power it should be? The tuner claims that this tune made 390 rwhp & 417 rwtq on a similarly equipped 2003 GT. Does the load reading seem a bit low given the modifications and the level of boost the car is making? Is the MAF pegged? What should I expect to see for spark advance?

[Scothew]

I would defintely think the MAF is a problem, but I am not familiar with the MAFia enough to know its limitations or uses. Usually, a lightning MAF would be used in a situation like this since it is calibrated for 42# injectors and can flow more air.

[uvbnhad]

I'll agree with the MAF being the problem. With your AFR you are apparently getting the fuel just not the air to coincide. It's running like a pig pretty much the whole way down the graph.

[Scothew]

Well the a/f ratio is about right for a blower car I think. I just think the car can't breathe and can't adjust for the proper amount of air due to running out of MAF.

[DSkeet]

Hmmm, hopefully I won't have any problems when my D1 goes on... Are you worried about running the 10 lb pulley on stock internals?

[black_nightmare]

Someone else told me that despite the voltage almost maxing out , since the counts value stays below 1023 then the MAF probably isn't pegged. My tuner went ahead and sent me a new tune with the MAFia set on 4, but without some definative explaination as to why it is pegging on the number 3 setting, I am a little nervous changing anything on the intake. I don't want to blow it up. Plus I don't know if I need to take the car directly to the dyno again before getting into boost with this new tune.


According to James @ RWTD the calculation to go from counts displayed in the CMR_dat software that I am using to volts is

(Counts * 5) / 1024 = Voltage

(Go here to see his explaination: http://www.modularfords.com/forums/2003-2004-svt-cobra-terminator/new-diablosport-maf-ia-25368-3.html)

If I use this I end up with 4.14 volts @ 4529 RPM and 4.61 volts @ 6000 RPM.


Why is this different from what the Predator showed and which to I believe?

[boss96]

The maf is ok in your setup since you are using the MAFIA. The maf will continue measuing airflow beyond 5 volts even though the EEC won't recognize it. With the predator you are reading the maf directly and that is why you see it hitting 5 volts. As far as the eec is concerned though, it is seeing less voltage due to the mafia doing it's job.
As far as hp goes, you don't say what your a/f ratio was. Since you have an intercooler you may be able to run a little more timing advance to gain hp but be careful. Finally, maybe it is just the dyno settings that are different than the example you mentioned.
Your load value is typical for a blown car, what your timing and fuel values make the difference.
Bob

[QWKSNKE]

I say richening it up a hair more and add some timing. With the intercooler you should easily be able to run 18-19 degrees at WOT. That should put you in the 380 range

[black_nightmare]

The maf is ok in your setup since you are using the MAFIA. The maf will continue measuing airflow beyond 5 volts even though the EEC won't recognize it. With the predator you are reading the maf directly and that is why you see it hitting 5 volts. As far as the eec is concerned though, it is seeing less voltage due to the mafia doing it's job.
As far as hp goes, you don't say what your a/f ratio was. Since you have an intercooler you may be able to run a little more timing advance to gain hp but be careful. Finally, maybe it is just the dyno settings that are different than the example you mentioned.
Your load value is typical for a blown car, what your timing and fuel values make the difference.
Bob



The air/fuel is shown in the dyno curve in my first post. Could you clarify what you mean by the dyno settings? My car was run on a dynojet. I believe that the other car was tuned on a Dynojet 224xLC. I assume you mean the load factor, since that can be changed with the 224xLC for simulating various road conditions? If that is the case, then the tuner has some explaining to do as to why they are quoting horsepower at a loading other than the weight of the car.

I am seeing 16.5 degrees spark advance at 6000 RPM

[QWKSNKE]

Do you have any exhaust mods?

I may have missed it, is this car an auto or 5-speed?

[black_nightmare]

Do you have any exhaust mods?

I may have missed it, is this car an auto or 5-speed?



I have a magnaflow catted x-pipe and magnaflow catback. The car is a five speed and has a T-45 transmission.

[asilver2001gt]

The stock maf is only 80 mm...You would benefit from a 90 mm MAF. Also, I'd richen it up, just a little but that's me

[black_nightmare]

The stock maf is only 80 mm...You would benefit from a 90 mm MAF. Also, I'd richen it up, just a little but that's me



I wanted to use a 90mm lightning MAF, but the tuner said that I wouldn't need it with this tune and it would require them creating a whole new tune for the car. At this point I am hesitant to ask the the tuner to do anything else as it is next to impossible to get him on the phone and when I do he do he doesn't offer up any real solutions. He merely hints that I might need a spark booster. To me that is utterly rediculous, since I happen to know someone running way more boost on the stock ignition with no problems. Also, I refuse to throw another 250 dollars down the drain on his hunch.

Actually my MAF is 75mm. They didn't swith to the 80mm until sometime in 2002 I believe. I have thought about trying a later model 80mm MAF, but I'm tired of throwing money at the dyno hoping something will work.

[QWKSNKE]

I believe stock MAF's from 96 up was 80mm.

You need more timing. Who is doing the tuning? What kind of software? SCT?

[asilver2001gt]

I wanted to use a 90mm lightning MAF, but the tuner said that I wouldn't need it with this tune and it would require them creating a whole new tune for the car. At this point I am hesitant to ask the the tuner to do anything else as it is next to impossible to get him on the phone and when I do he do he doesn't offer up any real solutions. He merely hints that I might need a spark booster. To me that is utterly rediculous, since I happen to know someone running way more boost on the stock ignition with no problems. Also, I refuse to throw another 250 dollars down the drain on his hunch.

Actually my MAF is 75mm. They didn't swith to the 80mm until sometime in 2002 I believe. I have thought about trying a later model 80mm MAF, but I'm tired of throwing money at the dyno hoping something will work.


NO need for a boost-a-spark at this point. I could have swore that an 02+ Mustang had an 85 mm MAF and everything before was 80. I still think you need a Lightning MAF.

AUTO or 5-SPEED???

[asilver2001gt]

I believe stock MAF's from 96 up was 80mm.

You need more timing. Who is doing the tuning? What kind of software? SCT?


I didn't have more than 16* of timing at 6000 rpms on my Vortech setup..and on my Novi, I only had 14*

[QWKSNKE]

he said it was a 5-speed

[asilver2001gt]

nevermind i'm a dumb ass

are the TR-6 plugs a colder plug than stock? all i've ever used are the br7ef

[QWKSNKE]

I didn't have more than 16* of timing at 6000 rpms on my Vortech setup..and on my Novi, I only had 14*

The 2000 puts more air out than the procharger P-1

He is intercooled so he should be able to run more timing

[QWKSNKE]

Look at his graph though. He needs more fuel. That's to close to the edge in my opinion

[asilver2001gt]

I was intercooled on both setups...you know that

[QWKSNKE]

oh yeah

[asilver2001gt]

Look at his graph though. He needs more fuel. That's to close to the edge in my opinion


I agree the a/f is too close for my comfort...i'd like it at 11.5:1

what is this MAFia

[black_nightmare]

I believe stock MAF's from 96 up was 80mm.

You need more timing. Who is doing the tuning? What kind of software? SCT?


James @ RWTD is did the tune. This tune was for a predator.

[QWKSNKE]

Is it a mail order tune or did you go put it in the rollers at his place?

[mustang1549]

i think tr6 is a colder than stock plug

[QWKSNKE]

i think tr6 is a colder than stock plug

yeah it should be.


Does the car run good. No misses or odd driviability issues. How many miles are on the car? How many miles on the catted x-pipe?
It would help if you knew the difference in the other car that made 390/417

[black_nightmare]

yeah it should be.


Does the car run good. No misses or odd driviability issues. How many miles are on the car? How many miles on the catted x-pipe?
It would help if you knew the difference in the other car that made 390/417


This was a mail order tune. I have tried to get RWTD to send thier local tuner guy to the dyno with me (he lives in the same city), but I can't get any response from them on that. That's what is so frustrating about this. If I could get the local tuner guy to come tweak it, I think we could figure this out. But I have a hard enough time getting my tuner on the phone to really answer some questions and do some real analysis.

The x pipe has probably 35000 miles on it.

The car runs great! If I am not careful, it will get sideways at 45 MPH when the boost kicks in. It's just not putting up the numbers that it should.

[rtusnake]

I agree with what everyone else said about the fuel issues but I read on quite a bit of cars that was using a tr6 plug and having problems and really liked changing the plug to fords plug or the ngk bre7f or whatever its called. This was all on gt's and the cobra guys seem to like the tr6 more.

[QWKSNKE]

. Could you clarify what you mean by the dyno settings? My car was run on a dynojet. I believe that the other car was tuned on a Dynojet 224xLC. I assume you mean the load factor, since that can be changed with the 224xLC for simulating various road conditions? If that is the case, then the tuner has some explaining to do as to why they are quoting horsepower at a loading other than the weight of the car.



Basiacally what Bob is referring to is that, regardless of model, all dyno's will give different readings. My car has been on 3 different dynos and all gave different results (one of them almost 14rwhp different with no change in the car)

[boss96]

The air/fuel is shown in the dyno curve in my first post. Could you clarify what you mean by the dyno settings? My car was run on a dynojet. I believe that the other car was tuned on a Dynojet 224xLC. I assume you mean the load factor, since that can be changed with the 224xLC for simulating various road conditions? If that is the case, then the tuner has some explaining to do as to why they are quoting horsepower at a loading other than the weight of the car.

I am seeing 16.5 degrees spark advance at 6000 RPM

Sorry, I read it too fast and did not notice the a/f graph. Yes, it is a little bit lean and may benefit from a little more fuel, only way to know is to try it. I would be very careful with adding more spark, 16.5 is pretty good. With the intercooler you may be able to add more but be careful, not worth it to get a good hp number with a tune that is right on the edge for pump gas. Or get a Snow WI kit and go from there. The WI will enable you to add quite a bit more timing safely.
Bob

[tacbear]

You definately need to add some fuel!

[Shankin]

I would change out the mass air meter for a 90. I have seen the cams be a little off from the factory causing some cars to make less than normal also.

[black_nightmare]

Could the flattened curves and low power be indicative of a clogged catalytic converter?

[Scothew]

if it cant get the exhaust out, its defintely a possibility. You may try running a can of seafoam through the engine to clean it and the cats out. Do a search, i believe we have discussed it before on here.

Also, whens the last time your fuel filter has been changed?

[black_nightmare]

if it cant get the exhaust out, its defintely a possibility. You may try running a can of seafoam through the engine to clean it and the cats out. Do a search, i believe we have discussed it before on here.

Also, whens the last time your fuel filter has been changed?


I replaced the fuel filter when I installed the fuel pump ( right before Thanksgiving).

[TheJeanyus]

I've heard of cars leaving the factory with the carpet in the way of the gas pedal or something and not being able to truly achieve WOT. :shrug:

[black_nightmare]

I've heard of cars leaving the factory with the carpet in the way of the gas pedal or something and not being able to truly achieve WOT. :shrug:


I checked that when I installed the new plenum and throttle body. I think I'm going to try swapping the x-pipe with an off road x that I borrowed from a friend to see if I might have a clogged cat. Sometimes I can smell something eminating from that general area.

[black_nightmare]

Well the cats seem to be flowing fine. I had a pressure test done on the cats. It showed no blockage. Anyone have any other ideas?

[black_nightmare]

I spoke with the tuner again. He mentioned that the 2003 GT that this tune was originally made for, achieved 180% load while mine only achived 140%. Both cars achieved 10 psi of boost at 5700 RPM. What would make the load be so different? The 2003 GT did have the later style MAF with the bar only protruding half way into the flow, while mine is the older style with the bar all the way across the meter. Is there a difference in the way these two meters read other than the newer stlye having the temperature sensor integrated into the meter?