dammm rods

[jwillburn119]

so i put 1.7 lifters on the car... and put stock rods back in it... new ones but the same length and they are pedistals.... torqued them and couldnt reach zero lash... i thought it was because i put new lifters in it and they werent pumped up... but i started it tonight and they still arent zeroing out... have about .003 play at full down... what do i do?

[One_live95]

what heads are these on stock? if you still had slop in them you are probably gonnna need longer pushrods.......


jason

[ncontt]

what length you have? I have several sets (one is TFS, can't remember on the others) I will check and see what I have.

Brad

[Disney Lincoln]

If they are too short then you can either mill down your pedestalls or get longer pushrods. Sounds like you need some 0.050" longer pushrods. You are shooting for about 0.050" preload.

[jwillburn119]

hey guys... yeah thats whati had come up with too... i had 6.25s... and i bought 6.30s so we will see what becomes of it

[qkjuicedpony]

just a thought but if you used these same pushrods when you checked clearance on the cam then you might want to check it again when you get the right pushrods

[LeeH]

If they are too short then you can either mill down your pedestalls or get longer pushrods. Sounds like you need some 0.050" longer pushrods. You are shooting for about 0.050" preload.

.050 lifter preload is a tad excessive, I like to shoot for about .020 with Iron heads and about .030 with aluminum heads. Words of caution, Check your valvetrain geometry instead of just throwing in longer push rods.

[jwillburn119]

well i was at well over .150 clearance so i figure .050 isnt gonna hurt me any... i guess i am gonna rely on the math to cover me on that one... THE CLAY DONT LIE!!!( i hope) hehe... anyway.. we will see, yeah im probably looking at about .030 preload, and the manual, comp, and summit both say
.020 to .040... im missing 0 lash by about .020 so, at .050 i should be at roughly .030 tell you all tommorrow.. when ups unf**ks itself and gets me my rods that were due saturday (see my UPS product review)
i ordered TFS trickflow 1 pieced crome moly 5/15 .080 walls rods... so they are good for good

[qkjuicedpony]

hope all works out for you in the end

[jwillburn119]

i will get you all some pictures of the BBK in the 94-95 tommorrow, it aint no small task... and i gotta get me a strut tower brace to fit in there... but i just gotta put the rods in it and time it, will get the pics of it all together though... if it dont work out, it just fits right along with how this whole car build is going... aint a dang thing worked out on this dammmmm mustang

[jwillburn119]

THE PICS I PROMISED, and how do i make these picures?
hah i figured it out myself

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f92/jwillburn119/topright.jpg

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f92/jwillburn119/topcenter.jpg

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f92/jwillburn119/front.jpg

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f92/jwillburn119/minusrods.jpg
AWAITING PUSHRODS... VALVE COVERS

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f92/jwillburn119/tbody.jpg

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f92/jwillburn119/left.jpg
HAHA AND YOU THOUGHT THE DISTRIBUTOR WAS IN HUH?

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f92/jwillburn119/roght.jpg
invisbutor

[QWKSNKE]

that's one big ass intake

[jwillburn119]

yeah it is... if you will notice... the screw missing form the blockoff plate... that allows it to clear my STOCK HOOD

[QWKSNKE]

:lol:

[jwillburn119]

cam thats in there... kinda blurry... cant resize


http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f92/jwillburn119/cam.jpg

[jwillburn119]

but if it gets me the gains i am expecting... its more than worth it... put headers on it too... so i think i am done with the N/A breathing problem... except heads... now its down to chassis and TIRES... fur real... was spinning b4... now im in for it...

[QWKSNKE]

just wait until you put good heads on. You will probably pick up 50-60 rwhp easy

[jwillburn119]

gonna save for the AFR's like 185's... and injectors... and a MAF... and... and... and... A TUNE!!!

[Disney Lincoln]

What FPR are you using? Does it come with the intake?? Do lines come with the intake to hook to the stock lines?

[One_live95]

have you had that intake on the motor before now? if so how do you like it.

[One_live95]

just wait until you put good heads on. You will probably pick up 50-60 rwhp easy



I sure hope so.......:popcorn:




jason

[jwillburn119]

What FPR are you using? Does it come with the intake?? Do lines come with the intake to hook to the stock lines?

the lines come with it... if its an 87-93... everything will switch over... including the FPR... the 3 bolt one.... not the 2 bolt one on the 1994-95, i had to order that one... its the blue on that you see from bbk, it looks really good though...

but the new intake has little brass fittings that are vulcanized to a lathed out pice of brass tubing that is lathed to match the male end of the fuel rails... really an easy idea to make... its a really nice looking intake... the lower is high rise, kinda like the air gap intake... just open area with a sheet metal bottom to hold the oil in the valley... the oil never gets anywhere near the lower intake... the heat all dissipates into the air... i dont really like the inside of the upper intake though... has alot of rough edges that need smoothing, and its like a giant reservoir for air... doesnt seem like the air will flow very evenly to the runners... but if it were to be... say... pressurized... i think it would do really well... BTW.. you should check out the SSI-R intake for the same... its a blower/turbo only intake with the same lower, and a "bucket" like the trickflow... the ugly one...

[Disney Lincoln]

I did not know of the SSI-R. Type-R? It's gotta be fast!!! Im in!!

Thanks for all the info on that man. Looks great!!

[jwillburn119]

anythin plus R is always better... everyone knows that!!!:drool:

[jwillburn119]

have you had that intake on the motor before now? if so how do you like it.





jason

nope... just got it on this last weekend... and i had to wait for UPS to get me rods to match the cam install... so i got them in at 6 o clock last night... too dark to time the car and make it run... hopefully i will let you know more within the nex week about how it feels... i started it with the shorter rods 3 days ago.. and throttle respons from idle to 2000 was GREATLY improved, and i could feel alot more in the pedal... but im sure thats the mixture of everything i did, and not just the intake

[jwillburn119]

i think this still fits in DAMMMM RODS... just not the SAME rods



haha... and then the car GODS spoke down... and unto me they said... @#$* you, you little idiot, for you may now pull your motor and replace whatever it is that is jumping around in there... it is not a valve though... haha... i know this for sure... because i can see them all clearly down the intake... with a flashlight... but it is definately something... dont understand what it could be... its barely possible i could have spun a journal bearing... or a rod bearing... the car still idles fine... so there isnt a hole in the piston... anybody help me out?

the sound is VERY heavy... and erratic... not in time with anything... still hits on all 8 cylinders... sounds like a drum thump when its being turned over with no fire, or fuel, only starter.

all my rockers are in place... and tight, so its not the rods or lifters... and when i tore it down... it ran GREAT:banghead:

[Disney Lincoln]

So you got the longer pushrods and it's still noisy?? What all did you do to it? Do the lifters preload when you tighten them down? If so, how much? Ot makes this noise while cranking too???

[jwillburn119]

cam, lifters, rockers, pushrods, and full intake... its all in this thread... and i guess i spun a bearing, its the only thing it could be... i guess...

yeah... i got .030 preload on the lifters... by the full open mark full close mark method... it sounds like a drum when it cranks.. metal to metal contact when it is running

[One_live95]

you sure the valves aren't hitting...... How can you see the valves throught the intake? especially with it running?


jason

[QWKSNKE]

If you spun a bearing, you wouldn't hear anything more than likely. Do you have oil pressure? Erratic oil pressure will reveal a spun bearing. Also take your oil filter off and cut the bottom 1/4" off the cannistor and pull the actual filter out. IF you see metal then you have spun a bearing.

If you are hearing a thumping sound then I would agree with one live that pistons and valves maybe hitting. I still cannot figure out why you had to go with longer pushrods. That does not sound right at all. Did you let the lifters soak with fluid for a day or so so they would be pumped up (or primed) when installing? If not, that is probably why you couldn't get the proper pre-load

[Italian LX]

If not, that is probably why you couldn't get the proper pre-load
That would also be the reason he had sufficient PTV clearance with a .544 cam.

[QWKSNKE]

That would also be the reason he had sufficient PTV clearance with a .544 cam.


he should have had it anyhow (depending on duration of course). My cam worked well with the OEM pistions and it is a .544 lift with 1.6 rockers

[Italian LX]

he should have had it anyhow (depending on duration of course). My cam worked well with the OEM pistions and it is a .544 lift with 1.6 rockers
Hmmm, I thought I remember him saying that he was going with 1.7 RR's. If so, that would've been a .578 lift. :eek:

Maybe I read one of his previous posts wrong. :huh:

[jwillburn119]

no... its .544 with the rockers... if you look at the picture of the cam box down this thread... the lobe lift is .3210x1.7=.544 that is the lift at valve time...

the part number on the cam is 35-324-8, and its a COMP cam

the obvious answer to why i can see the valves is because i have the upper intak off now, and the valves are still in one piece...

and with hypereutectic pistons... if the valves even thought about kissing the pistons.. it would DESTROY the piston... and i would lose that cylinder... AND... if it was tapping a valve... wouldnt it tap more than one valve????????? and if it was doing it at idle, it would have done it the WHOLE time... not just after it decided to after running for 10-15 minutes... AND i heard a way cool squealing noise... but it sounded like a wet clutch... not a bearing... but... i will chech the oil filter...

i started the car after i got the first of it together, before the new rods... and the lifters primed, and i had great oil pressure, and oil went everywhere... so the lifters primed, and after that, the rods still werent tight... i used proform rockers... so i think the cast on them was just about a thousanth off of the stock ones... and that allowed for the extra play...

no i still have good oil pressure, and a good idle... but if i was, or had tapped a valve... i would have a misfire... and it idles fine... and the timing is still dead on at idle... but the sound is still there...


RANDOMLY IS THE WORD

ABOUT THE SOUND... i don know if you all understand what i mean by HEAVY... is sounds like i have a rock inside a gunsafe... and i shake it randomly... that is the sound... and while it was idling before the initial pop... there was nothing, just a GREAT IDLE... then... i twisted the throttle to 2000RPM like 2 times... after it had idled for 10 minutes... and after the 2nd time... it sounded like an intake backfire... then the metal sound

[One_live95]

are you sure that the sound is inthe motor, not the bellhousing etc....? just a thought.

I wasn't really doubting you, i am just trying to help. I have never heard anything make a noise like you described.... is your belt tensioner tapping..... i had mine do that before after the belt i was using stretched eventually. What about the balancer, i have heard of them getting out of whack and bumping the water pump or pump pulley b/c of the slack. I assume you didn't drop any bolts down the dist. hole or anything right(if you did you won;'t be the first)lol


jason

[QWKSNKE]

ok ok. I didn't see where you mentioned that it idled fine then went to hell.

Have you pulled the valve cover yet? You may have bent a pushrod or broke a rocker arm.

Unless pedestal mounts are different than stud mounts, you should not have the pushrods so tight that they do not turn when the valve is full closed

[jwillburn119]

pedistals are different, but the rods still turn... the sound is around the back of the motor... and it sounds like #4 side... but it could possibly be in the bellhousing... why?

i know you arent doubting me, i like that the ideas keep coming out.. its great help when diagnosing a situation...

no as far as i know nothing was dropped into the engine... and its at the back of the motor... umm, all the valvetrain is still very tight, the valve covers came back off instantly, because it sounded like the 1 of the rockers was loose, and being bounced around by the others, and it was hitting the valve cover... so if you can imagine the sound that a chunk of aluminum would make when it was bounced lightly off of a 1/2 inch thick wall of the same aluminum, then you can understand what the sound is... but it only sounds like that at idle... dead crank sounds like a drum beat at 1 cylinder roll

THERE WAS A SQUEAL... thats why i suspect a main/ rod bearing....

i think it sounds (if you all can understand this) like the bearing is completely gone, and that eveytime the crank starts the downstroke, it pops the piston, as it covers the gap between the journal... and again on the upstroke...(only during dead crank) and i think because of centrifugal force, that would explain why the sound is erratic while the motor is running... just a theory

[One_live95]

:shrug: got me man.... Just as a precaution, i would loosen all the rockers arms so that all the valves are close, and pressurize each cylinder to make sure they are seated properly..... Hyper pistons can bend valves without destroying the pistons at low RPM i have seen it done. just a though... Usually it always seems to be something that has been changed..... not just a random kinda thing...??? :shrug:

good luck


jason

[QWKSNKE]

got me as well. I figured it was a rocker arm by the way you were talking

[coupe]

Take belt off. Go up front of motor and try to push/pull the crank & balancer forward & back (might need to pry or have someone start while you watch...you should see crank move significantly).

That sound might be a thrust bearing gone and a rod is hitting the close clearances in block. I'm pretty sure that's your problem. The back side near flywheel usually is where the sound comes from. Probably a thrust bearing issue.

[jwillburn119]

hmmm... that is a new thought... the thrust bearing... would it just go out though?

my oil filter is FULL of metal too though... i cut it in half and its horrible... so i dont know if the thrust bearing can cause that... but i think its aluminium... which screams bearing... but i still dont know... i have boiled down to the fact that im probably about to buy a new crank anyway...

it has definately changed though... the problem i have with the valves touching is that they would have touched from the first time the car made oil pressure... not 15 minutes after it had been running, at least thats what makes sense to me... and i can touch all the valves, and there is no warpage... or brokeness... so im just gonna pull the oil pan (read: pull the motor out of the car) and check the journals... and replace the oil pump!!!HAHA they are cheap anyway... anything else i should replace for the metal in the oil filter? (besides the filter)

i have a BRAND NEW balancer on there... and its not bad... for the earlier thread... and for the crank thing, and the thrust bearing thing, the crank WILL NOT move more than the clearance allows...

[QWKSNKE]

yep, either rod or main bearings are toast (if not both)

[jwillburn119]

i think when 1 goes they all go right?

[Disney Lincoln]

Usually just one will go unless you clog an oil passage.


Have you done a compression test on it? Sounds like one is in order. But, then again, it also sounds like an engine hoist is in order.....

[coupe]

Yea. Rod bearing...as they say "yup, ya slung a rod."

Only other thing would be cam-bearing...if your rocker geometry was THAT bad, it may have been the culprit too...check that whole motor out.

[jwillburn119]

yeah already bought a hoist... its coming out today... leaving it together... gonna start at the bottom and go up... dont think its a cam bearing.. .cuz i dont think the starter would turn it over then... and its brand new bearings and cam...

[One_live95]

and with hypereutectic pistons... if the valves even thought about kissing the pistons.. it would DESTROY the piston... and i would lose that cylinder...



i thought you said in the other thread that you had forged internals anyhow.....

okay... going on 1.7 rockers... good springs... intake(manifold), throttle body, lifters, headers... already forged internals and 3.73 gears( T5), would i be safe running cam .544 .544 lift with 224int 230exh (ACTUAL)DUR, and 112 LSA? with stock injectors and stock program?


GOOD LUCK with your problem.



jason

[jwillburn119]

yeah... unless they make forged pistons with hypereutectic coating... im thinking i dont... because they are definately hypereutectic coated, the discription from Speed Pro said forged, hypereutectic pistons... but i researched HYPEREUTECTIC... and it doesnt seem that the mating of those 2 metals is likely or even possible... if yall could help me out on that... im gonna figure that they are hypers for now... worst case...

[jwillburn119]

so... who called cam bearing???? anyone????? anybody???? HUH????

can anybody guess which one???? huh????

yeah... it was the cam bearing... number 5... the last one... how does that happen???

so i am gonna tear the whole block down... and have new cam bearings reinstalled... i dont think the cam is hurt... it doesnt look like it... BUT... i cant get it out... can anyone help me?

[jwillburn119]

okay okay... i found the cam bearing... it is ripped completely out of the block... laying in the oil pan.. ripped in half... chewed all to hell... looks like it went through a cheese grater... but there is no bad marks on the journal of the cam... so i think it is okay... i think the the cam is stuck on the #3 bearing... it is sliding freely... and so is number 4

[qkjuicedpony]

sounds like you might have nicked the bearings when you put the cam in.that sucks man...as for getting it out...more than likely you will have to hammer it out

[coupe]

ripped in half... chewed all to hell... looks like it went through a cheese grater.

That cheese grater is the crank/rods spinning. Like a pinball game once that bearing drops.

May have been off-center to start & the rocker/pushrod geometry helped it out the rest of the way? Have another set of eyes check that out too. It may help. :nice: Glad you found the culprit.

[jwillburn119]

yeah there is a reputed enginge shop in temple, about 15 miles from here... im gonna take it down to tehm and have them put new cam bearings in, and reset the cam, and make sure that there isnt anything hurt inside... pulling the crank off today.... if it will ever warm up