1992 5.0 build up

[Robocop]

New member here who has been out of the loop for years and now planning to get back to my Mustang roots.

I have a 1992 GT that is in perfect condition and was running just fine when it was parked about 5 years past. Out of boredom I removed the entire motor and tranny and stripped the block. Well you know how life gets in the way and my Mustang sat quietly for years waiting for the big plans I had for it.

Long story short I am starting fresh and have no idea how to begin. I am planning a bank loan to finance my build up however am hoping to keep the cost within the 7-8000 range to start out.

Ok I have a seasoned stock 92 block and all the parts from my old motor. I am asking suggestions on where to begin. I like the DSS crate strokers however really would like to know the person who actually builds it so I am thinking of using my block and simply buying the stroker kit. On the other hand I could go with a 351 as I am starting from scratch.

I have always wanted a car with a supercharger however if I could reach my goal of 450 HP to the tires without a power adder I would be happy with that as well. I like the 331 set up with about 9 lbs of boost and for some reason I am stuck on the GT-40 intake. It is simply the best looking intake in my opinion however I know it is limited compared to the newer intakes now offered. I also researched heads in detail as this is very important as far as power. I really like the AFR 185s however again if 450 hp can be had with the cheaper GT-40 versions then I will be happy.

So to make this short and sweet I will be buying the complete motor and all hardware along with a fresh tranny (manual). I really like the 6 speed however if the TKO 5 speed tranny will perform well then I would just as soon save a little cash and go that route with the tranny. I am not really sure what can be used other than a few brackets from my old motor. With that in mind can anyone give me a ball park figure of what I am looking at just to get my old horse running? Also any combo suggestions will be appreciated as well and also any good places to purchase parts from.

I also know the stock block may be my limiting factor here however it is well seasoned (116k miles) and should be able to handle 450 hp to the weels without breaking...if tuned correctly. So give me any ideas you may have....assembled stroker shortblock or a kit for my block....decent heads....will the GT-40 intake support 450 to 500 hp...etc:

Thanks for any help and I plan to get a few pics of my car up soon. It is in really good shape inside and out however it needs a new powerplant. It also needs some good Cobra Rs as it still sports those ugly ass hammer wheels that were so cool in the early 90s....yes I bought them thinking they were cool...(Dork) and I bought this car brand spanking new so it has been babied with one owner.

[TheJeanyus]

The block will hold 450 without a hiccup, or atleast it should. QWKSNKE is making about 525 and his hasn't split...yet. :jester:

I'm no expert on push rod motors, but here are my thoughts. For a reliable, daily driveable 450 rwhp, I'd recommend a 306 or 331 built using the stock block with high flowing heads, cam, and intake (maybe the TFS track heat setup?) and a supercharger from Paxton, ATI, or Vortech (depending on how much room for future growth you want it to support). With a good tune that will give you the power you're looking for, or more, with a setup that you can drive a lot on pump gas and not worry about too much. :nice:

[Robocop]

I know the addiction to power will get me however I do not plan much change after I reach my goal. I really just miss driving my Mustang and would most likely only use it on the weekends. If I can reach about 450hp I think that will do me just fine. I really do not know that much about Paxton...Vortech...etc: however I do think I would really like that boost no matter how it was made.

I have been checking prices and attempting to make a list of all the parts that I can think of. The popular magazines all have about the same prices advertised and I am wondering if I could arrange a discount from a dealer if I agreed to purchase all of my parts from one store. The biggest part I am stuck on is to go with a long block crate motor or simply use the kit with my block.

It seems to be hit or miss with 50 percent of the people saying it would be fine and the others saying negative things about an assembly line type crate motor. I am trying to figure out just how much(if any)cash will be saved if I go with a crate motor vs buying the parts for my block seperate.

It seems like alot of doubt on my part however I really have to get this right the first time. I hope if I do my research correctly,and with help here, I will have the most reliable set up for my cash and needs. I have seen horror stories where some poor kid puts all his cash into a motor only to find later his combo was way off or maybe they skimped on the small stuff only to scatter the motor later. This is way more complicated than I remember back in the day....

[Robocop]

I am planning on a good washing of the car as it has been sitting in a dusty garage for a very long time. I also have plenty of room in the engine bay with the motor out and I will probably hide a few wires and clean up the bay a little. Any suggestions on what to use to clean that engine bay with? I like that greased lightning stuff however there is a lot of grime caked up so maybe some type of oven cleaner.
I figured if I am spending a big amount of cash on the motor I might as well have a clean place to put it. There are loose wires hanging all over the place and I still have the A/C attatched as well as the power steering crap. Will it hurt to just soak everything with oven cleaner and spray it off? I plan on using a brush to scrub the problem areas but would like to remove as much grime as possible with just spraying it out.

[Hotrod]

You can use Gunk engine cleaner or super green (I think thats the name of it). You outta see if you can smooth the bay down and repaint it. Smoothed engine bays look really good.

[ncontt]

You can use Gunk engine cleaner or SIMPLE green (I think thats the name of it). You outta see if you can smooth the bay down and repaint it. Smoothed engine bays look really good.

edited for correctness ;)

[Italian LX]

I have always wanted a car with a supercharger however if I could reach my goal of 450 HP to the tires without a power adder I would be happy with that as well.
I don't see getting that kind of power out of a 302 block without a power adder or some major compression. If you stick with this goal, I would recommend doing a 351-based stroker. This is the route I am going and hopefully I will have it done within the next three months. I'm not sure of what time span you expect for your project to run, but if it runs further out than mine, I would definitely be able to help answer any questions on the details of the swap. There are a lot of sites and forums out there that give information about the swap, but sometimes it's a lot better to speak to someone that has been through it. Hopefully I could help you in that department.

. . .some reason I am stuck on the GT-40 intake. It is simply the best looking intake in my opinion. . .
I'm with ya on that one. :nice:

[Italian LX]

Will it hurt to just soak everything with oven cleaner and spray it off?
DO NOT use oven cleaner. It's great on bare blocks, but can wreak havoc on rubber, plastic, and aluminum components. As above, I recommend using Simple Green.

[NightHawk756]

Well, in my opinion, it's possible to get close to your goal on motor only. I could see maybe 350-375 rwhp with a 302 based stroker. But this would probably be with a 351-based stroker to get more than that. So, I suggest, you concentrate on building the motor itself and shelf the blower idea for the moment. Since your trying to save some coin where you can. Unless you just HAVE to have the blower right now.

So, you can concentrate on the right combo of parts to get the most out of your stroker. Then have it dynoed and see where your at. You may be happy with the results "sans" the blower. But, if your not happy, then buying the blower and installing it won't be extremely hard and you'll already have the solid foundation there in the motor. The only downside to this is, if your planning on a blower in the future, then you need to stay pretty conservative on the compression. This may hinder you getting your exact goal n/a.

As far as the engine internals go, I suggest getting atleast some good forged I-beam rods and forged pistons. A cast crank should do fine for your HP goal. Definately get a good girdle to help with cap walk. The heads you mentioned are very good. Them or Trick Flow are probably your best "bang for the buck" out of the box heads. A GT40 intake is always a good choice. Even after all these years, it's still one of the best. BUT, there are some advancements on the market. Trick Flow makes very good intakes as well as a Holley Systemax II. The Holley is generally the intake of choice for boosted apps since it has a BROAD rpm range. But both are very good. Now come your decision for a cam. And it's gonna be that..."your choice". Because there are many ways to go with this. If you decide for a fact that your going boosted right off the bat, then you might want to get a custom grind cam made from Ed Curtis or someone. Or, you can always go with an alphabet soup cam from Ford...I.E- B,E or F etc. They have always proven good and will still be ok if you go with boost later.

So, you've got some decisions to be made. Sounds like your on the right track. Good luck. ;)

[Dale McPeters]

347 stroker with 11.2 to 1 compression, AFR-185 heads, 1.6 roller rockers TFS-R intake, 75mm TB, 42lb/hr injectors, good MAF, good roller cam in the 550-580 lift range, 4.10 gears, 5 speed of choice, Good tune. And a 100hp
wet shot of nitrous will get you where you want to be and then some....;)

And will be cheaper on your pocket book than a 351w based stroker.
Ask me how I know.........:jester:

[natedawgg94]

your stock block with a good turbo setup should put you close to where you wanna be just look at the guys on the turbo forums. that setup is way more reliable in my opinion than a supercharger.

[TheJeanyus]

I don't think a turbo setup is any more reliable. It IS more efficient, but it's also a lot more expensive.

[coupe]

I recommend a 331 or 347 shortblock ($2500), a Holley or Trick-Flow top-end kit ($2200), and a Vortech S-trim ($2500?). That will be a killer setup. It's expensive, but sweet and a proven combo. Should easily do 450-500 at the tires...safely...all-day long. :nice:

[1sicklx]

:stupid:

but I might be swayed to go with a different power adder. :D

[Robocop]

I appreciate all the comments however there are so many new things on the market now that it is very confusing. When I bought this car new supercharged street versions were very rare and only a select few had 400 hp on the streets. Most guys started with exhaust and pullies and other simple mods. A few used nitrous and everyone was happy with the mild improvements. I am blown away now when looking at the street set ups and all these new products.
The GT-40 intake was really all that was available for the first few years and again only a few people actually had one. To me it is just a pretty intake and I should have purchased one years past however was happy with simple mods back then.

I have read so many good things about Holly Systemax and do know it is a better intake in many ways...but man it is just not near as pretty to me. I know looks should not matter when it comes to power but I do like the car to look nice under the hood.

I plan to snap a few pics tonight just to show everyone what I have to work with. Then I am going to cruise the sale adds looking for some goodies.

I have been a past member on other forums about fords and have got some good info on them however I like this one a little better. I like that many members are local and thaat I feel a little more at home.

Got to run for now and will check back after work...

[Craig K.]

I know how you feel sometimes.
I got into the 5.0 liter scene back in about 1991 when I bought a 1985 GT, I wanted a carb because not to many people knew much about the injection stuff back then, and you could make a carb car go so much faster for much cheaper.

The guys here really know their stuff (most of them anyhow :jester: )and it is great to know local people who can give you a hand when needed.

If you are going to do heads, cam, and the full meal deal then the extra cost to step up to a 351 based motor really won't be that much more.

I would consider a stroker 351, like a 393 or 408, somewhat lower compression (around 9.0:1) so you could add low boost later if you wanted to, and atleast the 185 AFR heads. Then get a custom cam from someone such as Ed Curtis.
I would consider doing a create motor, and spend a little extra to have it blue printed and get a really goo balance job on it. This way it would be a create motor, but would have a little extra attenion paid to it.
As metioned above, get the best rods/pistons you can (maybe a lite weight piston) and I would recommend a fordge crank.
The crank would be more than you need now, but I think you will get close to your 450 hp goal, then later add boost, and you would be near 650 hp, then you would need a fordge crank.

Regadless, do the research and don't be afraid to post options up here.
Many of us have been doing the car hobby for years and are all willing to share from our experiences.

[coupe]

:werd: Well said.

[QWKSNKE]

My opinion.

450 rwhp is a tall order for a n/a motor and it still be nice to drive on the street. I think a 9:1 compression 306 or 331 power adder car would fit your needs nicely. Good heads, custom ground cam for your combo, and a 12 psi blower or turbo would do great, maintain nice street manners, and be fun to drive.

GT-40 tubular intake is not a bad intake. If I can put over 500 to the ground with my OEM cobra intake and a procharged 306, you can do it with the tubular intake

[Italian LX]

If you are going to do heads, cam, and the full meal deal then the extra cost to step up to a 351 based motor really won't be that much more.
:agree:

I've got a budget worked out for the 427 stroker I'm working on and it is under $7000 and that's including things like flywheel, balancer, machine work, head work, headers, injectors, distributor and even a cowl hood -- basically, everything needed to swap over. That also includes a fully forged stoker kit, link bar lifters, Trickflow heads and intake, and custom cam. Granted, a couple of my budget prices are for used parts but most of it is new and it's all good stuff. The only thing it doesn't include is building the motor and installing it (which i will be doing myself).

The only things I'll be using from my current motor is the throttle body and MAF... and the nitrous kit of course.

From the motor alone, I'm looking to get around 425hp to the wheels... but I wouldn't be suprised if it got higher. :burnout:

[qkjuicedpony]

with what you are looking for i would do the following.

306 with good pistons using your current block,crank and rods
AFR,Brodix,trick flow heads
Cam F303
Holley Systemax intake
Novi 2000 supercharger


this setup will provide you with a pump gas friendly 450-500 rwhp and be very fun to drive...it will also leave you enough money to do other things to the car as well since it has been down for a while.



as for smoothing and painting the engine bay......that is one hell of a job in itself:D

[Robocop]

Just when I thought I knew what I wanted I now have many more ways to consider this. How sweet would a 351 be and I could probably get close to my goal N/A with a good 351.....I am so confused now however I am leaning towards my original plan a little more. I did get to ride in a 91 GT with a 331 and I believe about 12lbs of boost. I was hooked right away and that loud whistle from under the hood made it even better. The louder the better for me and that peppy 331 just blew me away...so much different than a stock Mustang from what I remember....incredible

Ok I will try and narrow this down a little by certain areas. What would a good deal be on an upper and lower GT-40 intake run. Should I go mail order or anywhere local I could try?

QwkSnke that 306 combo sounds much like what I am looking for. How long has yours lasted and do you drive it pretty often? Hell if this can be done I also like the looks of that cobra intake. My plans for the body later include making this car a clone of the 93 Cobras as this is one of the best looking years in my opinion. I could just do the entire Cobra clone thing and go for a set up like yours.

[coupe]

What's your budget and just as important: a timeframe. If you can throw $10k at it, cool. But if it's going to be multiple steps to get there (like most of us), there are some great options.

[Robocop]

There is no real time frame as the car has been stored for several years already. This is going to be a hobby car for me and I am in no real hurry.

My budget is most likely around 7 or even 8k. I have just paid off a personal loan that ran me 200 dollars a month. I plan to get another loan for my build up now that I have no payment. The problem is that I really do not know what I can use from my old motor. I really think I will try and buy all new stuff. The smaller stuff is going to rise the cost quickly I believe.

I am trying to make a list of everything that may come up and it is getting huge. Alternator,water pump,valve covers,pushrods,spark plugs,timing chain cover,ARP bolt kits...etc: This is the stuff that is killing my budget.

This car has really sat for at least 4 years. There is fuel in the tank and I am now wondering if I should drop the tank and flush it or even buy another tank. I know I can not use that fuel but should I even worry about that right now?

[Craig K.]

If you have a fuel leak then defiantly drop the tank and flush it.

I think that there are some Mustang retro places that now carry new tanks, that may be an option for you. Plus you'll need to drop it to upgrade your fuel pump anyhow.

If it were me, I think I would just store the original motor/trans set up in the corner of your garage.

Being that your the original owner of the car, someday the car may be worth something and if you have the original virgin engine it may add some value to the car.

It sounds like your wanting boost, so I think I would go creat motor 331 with AFR185 heads.

Are you set on a supercharger or would you consider a turbo set up?

The turbo's now days are really good compared to 10-15 years ago, but will add about $2k to the cost of a supercharger.

[QWKSNKE]

Just when I thought I knew what I wanted I now have many more ways to consider this. How sweet would a 351 be and I could probably get close to my goal N/A with a good 351.....I am so confused now however I am leaning towards my original plan a little more. I did get to ride in a 91 GT with a 331 and I believe about 12lbs of boost. I was hooked right away and that loud whistle from under the hood made it even better. The louder the better for me and that peppy 331 just blew me away...so much different than a stock Mustang from what I remember....incredible

Ok I will try and narrow this down a little by certain areas. What would a good deal be on an upper and lower GT-40 intake run. Should I go mail order or anywhere local I could try?

QwkSnke that 306 combo sounds much like what I am looking for. How long has yours lasted and do you drive it pretty often? Hell if this can be done I also like the looks of that cobra intake. My plans for the body later include making this car a clone of the 93 Cobras as this is one of the best looking years in my opinion. I could just do the entire Cobra clone thing and go for a set up like yours.

We just built it last year. I think it has around 8k miles on it now. I haven't driven it much recently because I need to get a wideband sensor to finish tuning it and it is currently sitting on jackstands with the tranny out waiting on me to buy a clutch to put in it

[Robocop]

The 93 style Cobra has always been my favorite as far as looks go. This is why I plan to eventually turn mine into a clone of the 93 Cobra.

I am pricing out stroker Kits right now. I decided to use my block with a stroker kit instead of a short block motor. I just have to decide what company to use. D.S.S , Keith Craft , Coast , ...they make some nice stuff however it will most likely be a D.S.S. 331 stroker kit. If I plan on about 450hp do I really need to order the Forged stroker kit or is cast enough?

A little off topic but that Keith Craft stuff is expensive as hell...is it really that much better?

[NightHawk756]

If I plan on about 450hp do I really need to order the Forged stroker kit or is cast enough?

I suggest you look into atleast forged I beam rods and pistons. You could probably get away with a cast crank. But, if you can afford a forged crank I would go for it. But, alot of people seem to think that if your using the stock block, that the block would go before the crank. So, in essence, you'll just tear up your nice forged crank when the block splits. But, I haven't had experience with high HP cast crank/stock block combos, so others here might can add to this.

I suggest you also look into a good girdle to help keep the mains in check. ;)

[qkjuicedpony]

do not buy keith craft....please


if a stroker is what you want i can put you in touch with Pro line race engines in woodstock ga.they do all of our engines and are very experienced in small block ford stroker motors.they can put you a kit together and explain all that you will need.

give them a call tomorrow at 770-516-0745

[QWKSNKE]

I suggest you look into atleast forged I beam rods and pistons. You could probably get away with a cast crank. But, if you can afford a forged crank I would go for it. But, alot of people seem to think that if your using the stock block, that the block would go before the crank. So, in essence, you'll just tear up your nice forged crank when the block splits. But, I haven't had experience with high HP cast crank/stock block combos, so others here might can add to this.

I suggest you also look into a good girdle to help keep the mains in check. ;)

I agree.

[qkjuicedpony]

ive seen plenty of stock block applications make in excess of 500rwhp and last for quite a while...its mostly in your tune and how you treat it

[LeeH]

347 stroker with 11.2 to 1 compression, AFR-185 heads, 1.6 roller rockers TFS-R intake, 75mm TB, 42lb/hr injectors, good MAF, good roller cam in the 550-580 lift range, 4.10 gears, 5 speed of choice, Good tune. And a 100hp
wet shot of nitrous will get you where you want to be and then some....;)

And will be cheaper on your pocket book than a 351w based stroker.
Ask me how I know.........:jester:


LOL, Hey Dale that looks real familiar except for the 42# injectors. One question though what do you think it will do with the Jay cam, I am real hopefull it will make 420rwhp N/A.

[Robocop]

Thanks for the phone number and I will give them a call. I suggested the above kits simply as I thought I would be limited to mail order parts places. I really did not think that there would be many places local to deal with.

I may just not be in the know these days however the only place I really could think of close to me was Hesco. I know the owner very well however even so his prices are huge for simple work as far as I could remember. I have went through many old magazines reading every article I could on strokers and found that many are at 450 hp very happily with stock blocks.

I believe my main problem is forming a simple plan. I have bought and traded many parts over the years and in the end have nothing to show for it. If I am going to do this I just need to stick with a simple plan to get me where I want to be. The biggest suprise was when I started to get back into it there are so many different choices now than there were in 1992 when I bought this car. There were maybe 2 major brands of intakes and heads and now there are way many more than that.

After reading on it all night I am actually starting to like the upper engine kit made by Trick Flow. It comes already matched with each part and the latest magazine showed a test on a 331 that put down some good numbers. For me the keep it simple method would most likely do best. The intake is not as pretty to me as the time tested GT-40 however it is not that bad. It did flow better and according to the magazine article the Trick Flow intake did very well on boosted applications.

I think I will start with a phone call to Pro Line and just ask them what they can offer. One more thing is that I need to get my block prepped. Can anyone give me a place that could do this for me local? And what all should I ask for when prepping my stock block for the build?

[NightHawk756]

Thanks for the phone number and I will give them a call. I suggested the above kits simply as I thought I would be limited to mail order parts places. I really did not think that there would be many places local to deal with. Yeah, there are several local places that are very knowledable and are a little easier to deal with.

I may just not be in the know these days however the only place I really could think of close to me was Hesco. I know the owner very well however even so his prices are huge for simple work as far as I could remember. I have went through many old magazines reading every article I could on strokers and found that many are at 450 hp very happily with stock blocks.Yeah, I definately would not suggest Hesco unless you just have money to burn. Plus the fact that I have a close friend that has not had very good experiences with them.

After reading on it all night I am actually starting to like the upper engine kit made by Trick Flow. It comes already matched with each part and the latest magazine showed a test on a 331 that put down some good numbers. For me the keep it simple method would most likely do best. The intake is not as pretty to me as the time tested GT-40 however it is not that bad. It did flow better and according to the magazine article the Trick Flow intake did very well on boosted applications. I personally don't think you can go wrong with this type of kit. Each individual part is made to specifically work with the other. So, in essence, you get the max efficiency out of each one as a whole.

[Robocop]

So can anyone suggest where to take my block to get it ready? Also do I need to have my pistons before I have my block done. Seems like I remember that you have to have your pistons before honing the block so they could measure or something???

[Italian LX]

So can anyone suggest where to take my block to get it ready?
Lee and I use a place out here in Alexandria called Dutton's Performance. Danny has been in the business for a while and does a shitload of engine work for circle track cars. He even has an engine dyno on-site. I also know him and his brother have been woking with 5.0L Mustangs at least since the early 90's.

Also do I need to have my pistons before I have my block done. Seems like I remember that you have to have your pistons before honing the block so they could measure or something???
If anything, you'll want your block bored first to determine what size pistons you will need. Yours being a low mileage 302, it probably will only need a .030over piston. However, if you ever have a questionable block, you realy can't tell what size piston you will need until the actuall machine work is started.

[coupe]

Pistons are supposed to be ready to install into say a .030 overbore, but best bet is to give to the machinist to check and make sure. You can remove material, but you cannot add it back.

Howton's in Hueytown is good. They take a while, but their work is top-notch. There's another place near Sylacauga called Vinson (sp?). Supposed to be good too. Check Hesco if you know someone. They can do that stuff well too. They have a bad reputation for costing alot like mentioned above, but they are capable certainly.

edit: not trying to contradict Brian. He's right; let machinist at least check block to see how much it will have to go "overbore." But for final bore/hone work, he should have the pistons.

[QWKSNKE]

.

edit: not trying to contradict Brian. He's right; let machinist at least check block to see how much it will have to go "overbore." But for final bore/hone work, he should have the pistons.

yeah that's what Brian meant. They do a rough bore to see what shape the cylinders are in and then do the final bore after receiving the pistons.

Also, KB Zilla also uses the same machine shop we do for all his mod motors

[Robocop]

Thanks for the help and I will make a few calls to arrange my prep work on my block.

If it takes me a little time to put this all together and I have to store my block inside my garage is there any certain steps I should take when doing that? Would I have to worry about rust and crap setting in? I remember building a motor years back with my Uncle and he kept the cylinders coated with that Motor Honey stuff to prevent rust and other oxidation building up.

[EZ SPEED]

Also, KB Zilla also uses the same machine shop we do for all his mod motors


Yes I do...Dutton Perfomance :nice: :nice: Only machine shop around here that I trust.

[Italian LX]

If it takes me a little time to put this all together and I have to store my block inside my garage is there any certain steps I should take when doing that? Would I have to worry about rust and crap setting in? I remember building a motor years back with my Uncle and he kept the cylinders coated with that Motor Honey stuff to prevent rust and other oxidation building up.
A thin coat of motor oil or WD40 on all surfaces will do just fine. :nice:

[NightHawk756]

A thin coat of motor oil or WD40 on all surfaces will do just fine. :nice:

:stupid: I use motor oil. ;)

[ncontt]

Ok I will try and narrow this down a little by certain areas. What would a good deal be on an upper and lower GT-40 intake run. Should I go mail order or anywhere local I could try?


I have a friend that has a Gt-40 upper lower that is for sale if your are interested.....he lives in columbus ga....http://www.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?t=758986

[NightHawk756]

I have a friend that has a Gt-40 upper lower that is for sale if your are interested.....he lives in columbus ga....http://www.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?t=758986

I may be wrong, but I think he's referring to this GT40....

[ncontt]

those are very "similar" arent they? I know it's not exact....at least the uppers.... :shrug: I don't know..... :shrug:

[Dale McPeters]

LOL, Hey Dale that looks real familiar except for the 42# injectors. One question though what do you think it will do with the Jay cam, I am real hopefull it will make 420rwhp N/A.

450rwhp N/A.....:D

[The Rock 326]

I have a friend that has a Gt-40 upper lower that is for sale if your are interested.....he lives in columbus ga....http://www.corral.net/forums/showthread.php?t=758986


He won't buy anything used.:nono:

[ncontt]

He won't buy anything used.:nono:

alrighty then.....lol

[QWKSNKE]

He won't buy anything used.:nono:


:slap: to Noel then



:D

[NightHawk756]

those are very "similar" arent they? I know it's not exact....at least the uppers.... :shrug: I don't know..... :shrug:

Sure, they're similar, just the uppers are a little different. And he said he likes the way the GT40 looks and you'll notice on this one, you can see the tubular make-up much better. And I think that's what he's referring to.

[Robocop]

Yes I like the tubular look of the GT-40 much better.It is just a classic look to me however I think I will get more for my money with the TrickFlow kit.

I learned a few valuable lessons when buying used parts when it comes to certain areas of motor parts. I tried it over the years and most times it was ok however if anything ever went wrong...did not fit...broke shortly after it was bought...etc: it always made for bad feelings so I shy away from it.

The good news is that I spoke with Howtons automotive today and he agreed to do my block for me. He advised me to bring all of the stroker parts to him with the block. He said it was best to actually install the parts and rotate it by hand to check for clearances. I did not think a block had to be notched with the 331 kit however he said it was always best to check them all first anyway.

So now the first step is to decide what type of pistons and compression I will want to have with my stroker kit and the Trick flow upper kit and then order it. I am hoping that Pro Line in Ga can help me with this and also sale me a stroker kit as well.

Thanks for all the help and slowly but surely this project may actually get off the ground before summer arrives.

[QWKSNKE]

yep. more than likely the block will have to be notched. Pretty sure slvrbullit notched his

[NightHawk756]

yep. more than likely the block will have to be notched. Pretty sure slvrbullit notched his

Mine had to be notched and it's also a 331.

If your planning on alot of boost, you may want to check into some dish pistons to keep the compression around 9.0-1. But, depending on what cc heads you use, you could probably get away with some flat tops. Just make sure, if your using Trick Flow heads that they are notched for such. If I remember correctly, my compression with my Probe dish-tops is around 8.9-1. But, I wanted to make sure it was very boost friendly. You may not want to go that low.

[Robocop]

I just talked to Brady at Howtons automotive....what a classy guy he is. He was very helpful and also offered to help me with the entire build. He is a dealer for Eagle products and said he could give me a great deal on a stroker package.
He suggested a custom ground Comp. Cam however the Trick Flow Kit comes with a cam. I am not really sure of the specs of the Kit camshaft and I also do not know the cc of the heads. I tried searching on line and found no specs for the Trick Flow kit.
Anyway Brady seemed like a great guy and offered to help in any way he could. I told him many here had recommended him as well as a few old school racers from my work.

I was suprised to learn that 7 out of 10 331 builds have to be notched. He said it is very critical to not remove too much material and that he has a set up that will mock the motor up and rotate it to check clearances. He also said I could come by anytime during the build and take photos of all the processes involved....very cool guy.

[coupe]

Been there many times. Brady runs the front counter. Wait till you meet Sambo. He is a heck of a guy too. For reference, they built Bobby Allison's NASCAR motors way back when. :D

TFS heads are a 61cc chamber. The cam would be a nice street cam for a 331. I run it in my 302 & love it. I would stick with the kit. Check out what Howton's can do pricewise on the Eagle stuff...I can price you on a 331 forged kit also.

[Robocop]

I liked Brady simply as he was friendly and did not mind talking even though he was very busy. He went over all aspects of the build and told me he would almost guarantee that he could get the lowest cost on parts. He said he makes most of his money in the machine work and that he does very well by word of mouth referrals.
Coupe I do think I will stick with the kit and Brady told me to get the specs on the cam that comes in the kit. It may be as good of a match as I will need to work with all the other parts. I really like the TrickFlow kit as it has a timing chain and roller rockers with the kit. It also has pushrods and a few other things that I will be able to use.

[coupe]

Cool. Specs are as follows...Stage 1 Trick Flow:
Lift: .499 Intake / .510 Exhaust (with 1.6ratio)
Duration: 275 Intake / .279º Exhaust (gross duration)
221º Intake / 225º Exhaust (.050 duration)

Timing (@ .050): Intake: open 3º BTC close 38º ABC
Exhaust: open 49º BBC close 4º BTC
Lobe Separation Angle: 112º
Intake Centerline is ground on 108º (it's got 4º advance.

This is what they will want to look at. Not sure what their cam knowledge is, but this thing is great. Might be a little small for the 331.

[Robocop]

Thanks for the help coupe....I searched all over the TrickFlow site and could not find any detailed specs. for the Kit assembly. Brady told me that he has a contract with Comp Cams and that his contact has been in the business for 30 years. If this cam is part of the kit I may be wasting my time designing a custom ground cam when I already have one coming to me.

He did say that most power was in the heads and the cam. Is this cam you have shown above a decent cam? I really do not know anything at all when it comes to lift and duration stuff. I do like a kind of choppy idle sound and only know that the cam has something to do with that.

Would I be that much better off to let a pro design and spec me a custom cam?? Would this above cam coupe has shown me make my target power level?

[coupe]

No offense to them, but they are not cam-designers. They will ask Comp and most-likely you will get an off-the-shelf grind.

The TFS kit can be "upgraded" to the Stage 2 cam...Not sure the cost difference, but it would be better suited to a 331. It's a 224/232 (289/294 gross) duration cam with .542/.563 lift (intake/exhaust). It's definitely serious & I'd recommend pistons specifically for the TFS heads...which have slightly rotated valve geometry. But it's streetable.
The Stage2 sounds nasty :evil:

The Stage 1 cam is great on my 302. With 1.7 rockers, it might feed a 331 okay, but I think I'd go with the 2 and 1.6 rockers.

:nice:

[ncontt]

The Stage2 sounds nasty :evil:


kewl, this is what I like to hear...that is the one I will be running on my coupe as well...[/hijack]
:chug:

[Robocop]

I think I put a question in the wrong forum earlier and thought I was on this thread.....I will try it here.

Before I go much further I need to decide if I will need a new K-Member or not so I can have it put in while my motor is out. I have priced the Griggs and D&D and read some good stuff about the Maximum motorsports. What is the main benefit besides weight reduction and do I really need one??

[NightHawk756]

I think I put a question in the wrong forum earlier and thought I was on this thread.....I will try it here.

Before I go much further I need to decide if I will need a new K-Member or not so I can have it put in while my motor is out. I have priced the Griggs and D&D and read some good stuff about the Maximum motorsports. What is the main benefit besides weight reduction and do I really need one??

That's strictly an answer you'll have to decide your self. Do you "need" one? No, not really. Are ther advantages to having one? Sure. Like increased room for headers etc., weight savings, better looks etc. That's money you could save if you don't want one. But your right, now would be the best time to put one in if you ever thought you would want one in the future.

The biggest thing I think most people use them for is the weight savings. And truth be known, the "real" weight savings comes from the entire kit....the k-member and tubular a-arms. It's around 35-40 lbs with the k-member and about 75 lbs with both. But then, your looking at having to go coil over in the front with tubular a-arms on most kits. So, it starts to get expensive.

But, if you want to save a little weight fairly cheap without having to go coil over, you can do just the k member and if you want to upgrade arms later, then you can. I used an AJE Racing K-member with road race bracing and then used my stock a-arms and springs.;)

Here's a link to AJE Racing........http://www.ajeracing.com/

[1sicklx]

AJE = :metal:

[Robocop]

Flashbang that is a nice,clean set up and I really do think I will go ahead and have a K-Kmember installed while I can. Once the car is running I will save for the other parts. I really never paid much attention to weight savings however now is as good of a time as any to start. I am also thinking on if I want to go with no A/C on the car and ditch the power steering for a cleaner underhood look. I am still un-decided about this but for now the main thing is the parts I really need to have installed while I have the chance with the motor out.

One last thing....anyone know anything about motor mounts?? I like the Poly mounts and do not really know the difference between solid and poly. mounts. If this car is to see weekend use what would be best and why??

[coupe]

I sent you a PM. I like the Energy Suspension mounts. I am using them on my buildup. Trans mount too. :D

[NightHawk756]

Yeah, your right. Now's a better time than any to go ahead with the K-member.

As far as the power steering and a/c go, I say keep 'em. Sure, they're just creature comforts, but you won't know how much you miss them until they're gone. I suggest on a street car, that you keep both. But that's one of those decisions again that comes back to preference. ;)

[QWKSNKE]

keep the a/c and p/s. Use motor mounts from a convertible mustang

[Italian LX]

I'm thinking Noel wouldn't know the difference if his car didn't have power steering.... have you seen his arm?! :eek:


:D


But in all seriousness, I recomend keeping both A/C and power steering. Sure it would clean up the engine bay a little, but it's more imressive to have a bad-ass street car that still has all the creature comforts. :cool:

[joker]

Removing the a/c does clean up the engine bay quite a bit. There is a good bit more room in my bay than there is on a factory a/c car. Personally, I dont ever use the a/c anyways, so I would ditch it. Power steering however, I would keep. The Ford a/c delete kit moves the power steering pump up where the a/c pump is now. If you dont, then it causes a problem routing the belt. Ugly engine bay I know, but it will be getting painted whenever the engine comes out. Alot of the wires organized better since the pic was taken. Here is a pic of mine without the a/c and the ps relocated

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/jokers35th/engine24.jpg

[NightHawk756]

Removing the a/c does clean up the engine bay quite a bit. There is a good bit more room in my bay than there is on a factory a/c car. Personally, I dont ever use the a/c anyways, so I would ditch it. Power steering however, I would keep. The Ford a/c delete kit moves the power steering pump up where the a/c pump is now. If you dont, then it causes a problem routing the belt. Ugly engine bay I know, but it will be getting painted whenever the engine comes out. Alot of the wires organized better since the pic was taken. Here is a pic of mine without the a/c and the ps relocated

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b189/jokers35th/engine24.jpg

You don't ever use your a/c?? :think: I have a vert and I still end up using the a/c sometimes. Especially if the wife's riding. You can forget riding with a women without atleast having the option of using a/c. :jester:

[Italian LX]

You don't ever use your a/c?? :think: I have a vert and I still end up using the a/c sometimes. Especially if the wife's riding. You can forget riding with a women without atleast having the option of using a/c. :jester:
:agree:

Also, without A/C, you won't have an effective defroster -- make sure you have a rag to wipe your windshield when it fogs over in the winter time.

[QWKSNKE]

I have to have a/c. I hate riding with windows down

[NightHawk756]

:agree:

Also, without A/C, you won't have an effective defroster -- make sure you have a rag to wipe your windshield when it fogs over in the winter time.

Ooooh yeah, I forgot about that one too. That teh sucks when you cant see in the winter through your windshield from the fog screen. There's more than just creature comfort reasons to keep it.;)

[joker]

You don't ever use your a/c?? :think: I have a vert and I still end up using the a/c sometimes. Especially if the wife's riding. You can forget riding with a women without atleast having the option of using a/c. :jester:

No, I rarely ever use the a/c. I may have turned it on all of twice last year.

The wife doesnt like riding in fox body stangs anyways. Something about all the little rattles and creeks they tend to make. Plus if we go anywhere together, we would probably take the kia or the truck. If not, she can either deal with no a/c or stay at home :jester: (If that is repeated to her I will deny it of coarse) :jester:

[joker]

:agree:

Also, without A/C, you won't have an effective defroster -- make sure you have a rag to wipe your windshield when it fogs over in the winter time.
Hum you have a point, but I wonder if the defroster is some how setup different in non a/c cars.

[coupe]

A heater core will defrost your windshield. Just need to get glass warm...it won't frost over then.

[Italian LX]

A heater core will defrost your windshield. Just need to get glass warm...it won't frost over then.
Okay, maybe I should've called it the defogger then.

Sure, warm air may defog a windsheild somewhat... but you have to wait for the core to warm up enough. An A/C can run cold air to the window and defog it almost instantly due to the drying of the air (hence the name, air conditioning). This obviously comes in very handy since it's mostly needed during the first part of a drive when the car is cold.

[Robocop]

Well I think I will keep the A/C however I am not sure how well it will work. It was doing very fine and blew nice cold air when it was parked about 5 years back. I have already yanked all the smog crap and am starting to try and clean my engine bay a little. I am also sorting through this big ass box of brackets and other parts trying to see what all I can use. I did not label or bag anything when I took it apart. I am trying to hide what wires I can but man there are so many different ones I am a little intimidated to even try. I can not remember what went where however I figured that now is the best time since the motor is out.

What is the reason for using convertable motor mounts?? Will they work as well as a set of aftermarket ones and are they solid mounts?

[NightHawk756]

What is the reason for using convertable motor mounts?? Will they work as well as a set of aftermarket ones and are they solid mounts?

I'm using convertable mounts on mine.

Nah, for a street car I don't suggest sold mounts. Solid mounts were originally made for race only cars. Although some use them on the street. But, with solids, you'll feel just about all vibration from the engine. So I don't suggest them. Use some energy suspension poly's or the convertable stock mounts. ;)

[04 Mach1]

The vert mounts loop over each other making them much stronger they look alot like any after market mount just with out the urethane.

[LeeH]

Brady told me that he has a contract with Comp Cams and that his contact has been in the business for 30 years.

I am not doubting what you say but my personal experiences with Comp Cams custom grinds is that they tend to do the same thing every other cam grinder does, They take existing lobe A along with lobe X and position them on a cheap core. The cam usually comes out with the XE lobes which require one hell of alot of spring pressure which is not good for most hydraulic roller lifters. The only thing that can be done is to either modify your existing lifters to go solid after .050 or increase the engine oil pressure.

If this cam is part of the kit I may be wasting my time designing a custom ground cam when I already have one coming to me.
The TFS cams are good cheap cams that work well for what they are. The only way to choose the correct cam is to know what you want and let the induction dictate what it needs to propperly fill the void below it using your expectations as a guide to choose the correct window for peak volumetric efficiency.

He did say that most power was in the heads and the cam. Is this cam you have shown above a decent cam? I really do not know anything at all when it comes to lift and duration stuff. I do like a kind of choppy idle sound and only know that the cam has something to do with that. What is your entire combo, Dont pick a cam because you like the way it sounds.


Would I be that much better off to let a pro design and spec me a custom cam?? Would this above cam coupe has shown me make my target power level?
A custom cam opposed to an OTS will offer many advantages, OTS cams are mostly rather peakish in terms of HP and TQ. A custom cam can offer a much flatter more usable curve along with superior idle quality and higher peak numbers.

[Robocop]

I appreciate the input LeeH and I really know nothing about cams anyway. I did not even know until recently that the TFS kit came with a cam. I am still learning a few basics and plan to talk to the machine work guys and determine the way tp proceed. I originally wanted to have my heads and pistons figured out in order to figure the compression ratio for a mildly boosted set up. I am basically at the mercy of others here as I do not know the tech stuff.

I think it would be best to design my cam around my motor and what goal I am looking for. I found out that the TFS kit has a cam and I wanted to run the specs past the machinist however I thought the whole purpose of a kit was that all the parts were proven to work well together. I wonder if I can buy the kit minus the cam and have a custom ground one done later?

I have copied the specs on both stage 1 and 2 cams that were given to me earlier in this thread. This will help me make a decision a little later. I am going to try and go to Howtons this week and start working on some prices for the forged stroker parts. When I get prices I will let you all know and I can go from there. I think it was posted that the heads in the kit have a 61cc chamber. What type of pistons should I use with these heads in order to be able to run a mild amount of boost....maybe 8-10 lbs. Will the pistons have to have that weird fly cut stuff? I really do not know what that means however I read that for some heads it has to be done.

[1sicklx]

however I thought the whole purpose of a kit was that all the parts were proven to work well together.

:yup: that is the idea behind both the TFS and Holley kits

[Italian LX]

Will the pistons have to have that weird fly cut stuff? I really do not know what that means however I read that for some heads it has to be done.
Fly cutting is refering to the half-mood shaped valve reliefs in the top of the pistons. This gives the valves a little extra clearance when they are down and the piston is up. The amount of valve relief will be directly related to the shape of the piston top and the specs of the cam.

[NightHawk756]

:yup: that is the idea behind both the TFS and Holley kits

:stupid:

As far as the pistons go, I suggest forged. As well as the rods. If you have to, I think you'll be fine with a cast crank. And when you buy the forged pistons, just buy them already fly-cut for twisted wedge heads. That way you have nothing to worry about. Especially since your undecided on what cam to use. That is, unless you want to go with a dish top piston for lower compression if you want to run high boost later. But you'll be fine if you only want to run 8-10lbs. with the compression you'll get from flat tops. ;)

[LeeH]

:yup: that is the idea behind both the TFS and Holley kits

Problem is the Holley kit is designed to work on a 9:1 302ci engine, The early cam that came with the Systemax II was leaps and bounds better than the current one. Holley made many changes trying to address the valve guide issues and the cam was one of the first major changes to the kit. The TFS kits are okay but again are designed with a stock short block in mind, The #2 and 3 cams are of course not meant for use on a stock short block but they are designed around a hypothetical combo. Just understand in your selection of parts that the TFS TW heads intake flow stalls at and above .550 lift, Nothing except alot of bowl and chamber work will change this. Keep this in mind when selecting a cam if you dont go custom, The good low and mid lift numbers on the TFS TW heads are what makes them soo good for a street car.

The way I would build a N/A 331 for a daily driver:
10.5:1 compression(JE/SRP, Probe, Ross etc.)
Cast crank(stock block will fail before a good cast crank will)Eagle or Scat
I beam rods(Lighter rotating mass)Scat Cap Screw rods
TFS TW, AFR185, 192 Canfeild
Edelbrock Perf RPM2, Holley Systemax II(I dont like the Holley's quality)
Custom grind or OTS Comp XE274HR

If I was planning on 8-10psi the above would only change in compression to 8.5-9:1 and the Cam would still be a custom or for OTS cams the AFM B4 is a pretty good cam which is nearly identicle to the TFS #2. Another good intake with boost or more cubes is the TFS "R".

[Robocop]

OK so far I believe I have 2 choices if I go with the TFS upper combo and that is stage one or stage 2 with either the Track Heat or Street Heat set up.
If I read correct the cams offered are......

Stage One:
Lift: .499 Intake/.510 Exhaust
Duration: .275 Intake/.279 Exhaust (Gross duration)
.221 Intake/.225 Exhaust (.50 duration)

Stage Two:
Lift: .542 Intake/ .563 Exhaust
Duration: .289 Intake/ .294 Exhaust (Gross duration)
.224 Intake/ .232 Exhaust (.50 duration)

I think I will go ahead with the flat tops cut for the TFS heads with the plan of using a mild amount of boost. I do not know what the above numbers mean however using the 2 cams above what would be the differences of both. Is one cam set up for more low end and the other more mid range?

Also LeeH what does it mean when you say the intake flow stalls above a certain lift? Does the car actually stumble or fall flat losing power? I am going to Howtons Monday and need to tell him what to get prices on for me. Once I have that I will use that as a base and see where else I can try to find a stroker Kit. I also have to call Pro Line in Woodstock Ga. Those guys seemed to really know what I was looking for however I did not get to talk to them for long. I said I was shopping around and they said to call back when I knew exactly what I wanted.

One more thing.....
Would it be the same to start with a higher compression motor and use no boost. Lets say that I went with 10.5:1 N/A would it be just as good to go lower like maybe 8.5:1 with a little boost ? Doesnt a supercharger simply increase the compression in the chamber? It seems that a N/A motor could do almost as well by simply starting out with a higher compression ratio in the first place.

Sorry so long however I have never tried to figure out the finer details of a motor. I thought I knew the basics and found out that I do not know much of anything at all.

[Italian LX]

Also LeeH what does it mean when you say the intake flow stalls above a certain lift?
He means that the flow doesn't increase significantly even as the valve continues to open further. You can see it in this flow chart on their website:

http://www.trickflow.com/product/fordcylinderheads/twisted_wedge/pr_twisted_airflow.asp

However, you can someone port the heads to help that problem if you ever decide you want to untilize the heads more in the future. Here are some flow charts from TEA:

http://www.totalengineairflow.com/products/fordhead/tfstw/

[Italian LX]

One more thing.....
Would it be the same to start with a higher compression motor and use no boost. Lets say that I went with 10.5:1 N/A would it be just as good to go lower like maybe 8.5:1 with a little boost ? Doesnt a supercharger simply increase the compression in the chamber? It seems that a N/A motor could do almost as well by simply starting out with a higher compression ratio in the first place.
You're statement is basically true, but there is a little more to it -- there are pros and cons to both set-ups. Things like blowers add heat and make more work for the motor... but they also give you the ability to increase power with only a pulley change. An N/A motor will cost more to build up (as opposed to just slapping a blower on a stock block)... but you can always add blower down the road to get even more power. There are many other reasons to chose one over the other, but you need to decide on your goals and see which fits you better.

[NightHawk756]

You're statement is basically true, but there is a little more to it -- there are pros and cons to both set-ups. Things like blowers add heat and make more work for the motor... but they also give you the ability to increase power with only a pulley change. An N/A motor will cost more to build up (as opposed to just slapping a blower on a stock block)... but you can always add blower down the road to get even more power. There are many other reasons to chose one over the other, but you need to decide on your goals and see which fits you better.

:stupid:

And on the compression part, sure, 10.5-1 probably wouldn't be bad with low boost and a VERY good tune. But, in my opinion, that kind of limits you a little. As in, increasing the boost will start to get a little tricky and you'll have to put alot of attention to your tune(which your going to do anyway). With lower compression, you can get away with alot more boost safely and have room to play. Even with the tune.

[Italian LX]

And on the compression part, sure, 10.5-1 probably wouldn't be bad with low boost and a VERY good tune. But, in my opinion, that kind of limits you a little. As in, increasing the boost will start to get a little tricky and you'll have to put alot of attention to your tune(which your going to do anyway). With lower compression, you can get away with alot more boost safely and have room to play. Even with the tune.
:werd:

Although, if you choose to go with a lower compression because you are going add a blower, just make sure that you don't go too low of a compression based on what size blower you plan on using. Sure, low compression will allow alot more boost safely, but it will also will limit your power level significantly when you use a small to moderate sized boost blower.

[NightHawk756]

:werd:

Although, if you choose to go with a lower compression because you are going add a blower, just make sure that you don't go too low of a compression based on what size blower you plan on using. Sure, low compression will allow alot more boost safely, but it will also will limit your power level significantly when you use a small to moderate sized boost blower.

True dat! Yeah, I guess I think of terms in turbo's now. Since it's so easy to up the boost from 7-8lbs. up to 25-30lbs. relatively easy. But very true. You could be maxing out the efficiency of the blower if you go too low with the compression and have to make up for it with boost. A good 9 to 9.5-1 compression would probably be ideal I would guess. What do you think Brian?

[QWKSNKE]

no higher than 9:1 in my opinion

[NightHawk756]

no higher than 9:1 in my opinion

Yeah, mine ending up being 8.9-1. But, once again, I am using a turbo.

[coupe]

Noel, I have an idea: Since you're wanting a proven package, stick with the Trick-Flow Stage1 kit...but keep the motor 302 or 306 cubic inches :yup: .
You'll love the combintaion, it will make plenty of power N/A, and will support a blower down the road. This way, you don't have to mix & match parts.

You can get an eagle stroker kit for the 302 size and like mentioned before, just specify the pistons flycut for TW heads...it will be your best and least complicated path.

If you're dead-set on a stroker...you probably will want to get the components (heads/cam/intake) separately.

The TFS kit would probably limit the potential of a 331/347, but with a blower, would make 450 easily on a 302/306.

[LeeH]

If I read correct the cams offered are......

Stage One:
Lift: .499 Intake/.510 Exhaust
Duration: .275 Intake/.279 Exhaust (Gross duration)
.221 Intake/.225 Exhaust (.50 duration)

Stage Two:
Lift: .542 Intake/ .563 Exhaust
Duration: .289 Intake/ .294 Exhaust (Gross duration)
.224 Intake/ .232 Exhaust (.50 duration)

I think I will go ahead with the flat tops cut for the TFS heads with the plan of using a mild amount of boost. I do not know what the above numbers mean however using the 2 cams above what would be the differences of both. Is one cam set up for more low end and the other more mid range?
One thing at a time.
There are more specs to those cams which are the most important, They are the timing events(valve opening and closing in crankshaft degrees). With a good cylinder head the cam wont have to be biased towards either the intake or exhaust as many OTS cams are since the OEM heads are crippled by design. You want to keep the intake clean and not bleed off excessive amounts of cylinder pressure doing it, With an efficient induction package you wont have to have large amounts of overlap or lots of duration. You will however want a fairly fast ramp in order to take a good deep breath. The higher the volumetric efficiency and the longer it stays there not only equals more power but more usable power(flatter power curve). On a 302 use nothing smaller than 1 5/8 primary tubes and on anything larger than a 331 use 1 3/4 or 1 3/4 step headers.
The specs you see in those cams are gross valve lift with a 1.6 ratio rocker arm and duration from seat to seat or .006 and duration at .050. the only thing that both the duration figures show you is how fast the ramps are. The ramps are the opening and closing ramp of the lobe above the base circle of the camshaft. Lobe lift is the amount of total lift above the base circle of the cam, The rocker arm ratio multiplies the lobe lift which in the case of both of these cams is 1.6 times the lift at the lobe its self. You can play with rocker ratios to increse the area under the curve which equals efficiency(power).

Also LeeH what does it mean when you say the intake flow stalls above a certain lift? Does the car actually stumble or fall flat losing power? I am going to Howtons Monday and need to tell him what to get prices on for me. Once I have that I will use that as a base and see where else I can try to find a stroker Kit. I also have to call Pro Line in Woodstock Ga. Those guys seemed to really know what I was looking for however I did not get to talk to them for long. I said I was shopping around and they said to call back when I knew exactly what I wanted. Italian LX hit the nail on the head, However a little bowl and chamber work can fix some of that.



One more thing.....

Would it be the same to start with a higher compression motor and use no boost. Lets say that I went with 10.5:1 N/A would it be just as good to go lower like maybe 8.5:1 with a little boost ? Doesnt a supercharger simply increase the compression in the chamber? It seems that a N/A motor could do almost as well by simply starting out with a higher compression ratio in the first place.
The problem with higher compression ratios is pump gas, Now with aluminum heads you can run up to 11.5:1 N/A on pump gas(91+). The reason is aluminum transfers heat faster(simplified version) while cast iron retains heat better which helps promote HP, Heat retention when coupled with higher compression(above 10.5:1) will cause detonation. This is unless you pull a ton of advance out of it which will negate any and all advantage of having more compression.
Yes a blower will increase compression but it does way more than that, It provides an artificial atmosphere for the engine to operate in. Swept volume is all you have to try and encourage atmospheric pressure to enter the empty cylinder, As the piston moves down on the intake stroke the intake valve is opening. The piston moving down creates a low pressure area and as the void is increased the pressure drop is higher, Atmospheric pressure is trying to fll this void through the open intake valve. The intake valve wont start to close until after the piston reaches the bottom of its stroke and changes direction into the compression stroke. The reason for this is the column of air rushing in will continue even after the piston is moving up towards TDC, This is because the mass of the air column is wanting to continue to move. The higher the engine speeds the more of a ram effect you get and this is what causes peak volumetric efficiency and the negative effects of intake reversions, So this is why valve timing is soo critical on a N/A engine. The exiting exhaust is also effected by this as well just a tad different, I could go on and on and on but for the sake of everyones sanity and patience I wont. A blown engine doesnt have to rely on the barometric pressure to fill the cylinders, Your making your own atmosphere within the intake tract so your forcing air into the cylinders. At 2 bar you have theoretically doubled the displacement of the engien, 2 bars is double atmosphere. 28in HG is roughly 14psi soo at 28psi or roughly 56in HG your 302 would consume the equivelent amount of air as a 604ci engine at 100% VE. Soo a blown engine wont need the overlap a N/A engine would since its not trying to coax atmosphere into filling the cylinder, If you run an engine with boost and a cam with much overlap then your going to be blowing boost out of the exhaust which is wasting power. Overlap is when the exhaust valve is closing and the intake valve is opening, There are a few degrees there where both are open a small amount. This increases the amount of scavenging to help pull in fresh air through the intake valve and help flush spent exhaust gasses from the cylinder. You need to make up your mind right now which way you want to go, Its cheaper to do it once than twice. Also regardless what people say none of the alphabet cams are good for boost, Too much overlap and lazy lobes will hurt power.

Sorry so long however I have never tried to figure out the finer details of a motor. I thought I knew the basics and found out that I do not know much of anything at all.

Just remember suck, squeeze, bang, blow! I deal with mostly boosted applications on a daily basis as I R A mechanic sorta kind of ;). I think Dale might vouch fer me:jester:
Anyway I have left out alot but I am afraid you might get a little lost as well as my translation might loose a little of its usefullness in an extremely long and boring post.

[Robocop]

LeeH I thank you for the input and it is confusing to me however you are correct when saying I do not want to do this twice. I have to get this right the first time around as I can not afford to mix and match later on.

I really want to get the bulk of the stuff done soon as I feel this will motivate me to just finish this project. The cam stuff is confusing to me so I have been searching old threads here for others who have proven combos that work. I have read almost every old issue of the Ford mags looking for reviews and packages as well.

I will say that I really do not know what is best however if I can just get to my goal of 450 HP I will be happy. To me I would not know the difference between a custom cam and one made from an old broomstick so again I must rely on the advice of others. The main thing right now is that I would like to go ahead and order the top end kit and it comes with a cam already. When I take my block to Howtons he said he would be happy to machine it and put the short block together afterwards. If he did that I would end up with 2 cams if I go with a custom one.

I do kind of actually like Coupes idea of keeping the motor a 306 in order to best work with the TFS kit. If I were to do this and use a little boost what would the difference be in HP between the 306 VS the 331 if both motors had around 8-10 lbs of boost?

Also thanks for the graphs ItalianLX however that stuff all looks like latin to me but it was an interesting read. I need to make my decision before the next week so I can order my top end stuff. Richard and I were talking tonight and we were trying to figure out what best combo to buy. The TFS website shows 2 different kits in the street heat vs track heat kits. One makes about 350 HP and 370 Tq while the other makes 370 HP and 350 Tq. I think the main difference is the intake design and I thought it best to get the kit with more torque. Anyone have experience with both intakes and the better choice for street use??

This thread is getting long however it does help me greatly to gain every bit of information I can. I will have this car running before the Summer if at all possible....thanks for everything.

[1sicklx]

One makes about 350 HP and 370 Tq while the other makes 370 HP and 350 Tq. I think the main difference is the intake design

That is correct .. individual part numbers for the kits are identical except for the intake. However, the ratings I saw were 350|370 and 360|350, but those are only estimates anyway.

[Robocop]

Yeah I could not remember the actual numbers but did remember there was a little difference in both kits. The estimates given by TFS are nice to know however was their estimate based on a standard 302 N/A ? If so with a little boost my 450 HP goal should not be that far away

[1sicklx]

Testing was based on a 306 NA with a few other mods if I remember correctly

[coupe]

I do kind of actually like Coupes idea of keeping the motor a 306 in order to best work with the TFS kit. If I were to do this and use a little boost what would the difference be in HP between the 306 VS the 331 if both motors had around 8-10 lbs of boost?


Not a whole lot of difference with the boost. One of my friends had a 302 with heads/cam/intake with 42# injectors and an S-trim Vortech. It made 435-445 hp nicely. He sprayed a little on it for 500 hp...stock bottom end. It was in a full-weight hatch and went 11.1 @ 126mph (11.1@126mph) on drag radials.

My other buddy with a single turbo makes 510-520 rwhp with his 347 and the turbo. It made 488 rwhp with the same exact setup on a 306 with stock cam! It took some more boost, but still made the power.

In a nutshell, you'll be happy with a boosted 306. And it will probably run great on stock computer with a correctly calibrated MAF and injectors :yup:

[LeeH]

I will say that I really do not know what is best however if I can just get to my goal of 450 HP I will be happy.

N/A takes some serious work to get into the 450RWHP range, With a blower or turbo its much easier. Dale and I witnessed a GT40 crate engine put down 396RWHP with an S trim at 10#, Dale did the tuning on it. That was a realatively conservative and safe tune too.
Pluses of a N/A 450rwhp car.
Showing the ability of getting it done on motor alone!(bragging rights)

Downsides of a N/A 450rwhp car.
Drivability suffers.
Fuel milage sux.
Shorter maint intervals
Tune is critical

Blown 450rwhp pluses
Good drivability
Can get good fuel milage
longer maint intervals than N/A of same power output
Longer lifespan potential

Blown 450rwhp downsides
Tune is very critical
Lots of heat
Blower belt requires routine inspection
Overdriven blowers have reduced lifespan
Blower belt will slip at higher boost levels
The amount of stress put on the snout of the crank and front main bearing
Break balancers in the keyway

[Dale McPeters]

I deal with mostly boosted applications on a daily basis as I R A mechanic sorta kind of ;). I think Dale might vouch fer me:jester:


:lol: ........well um well........um maybe. :jester:
By the way hurry up with yours so we can see
what it is going to do. :D

[LeeH]

:lol: ........well um well........um maybe. :jester:
By the way hurry up with yours so we can see
what it is going to do. :D

LOL,
Your waiting on me as much as I am wait on me.:jester:



You wont believe this but I have some kind of rodent in my mufflers and hes packed em with assorted nuts(true story), Now I have to de-nut my car.