Still Glowing

[04 Mach1]

Got it all back together tonight. Fired up and let it come up to temp and let it run for about 30min. Then decided to check the base timing it as sitting at 25 degrees bumbed it back to 10 degrees and it only took maybe 2 min and started the glowing of the headers again. Is it possible to spin a sfi balancer? Or is it more likely to twiste the snout of the crank(supercharger pulley). I have a stock one I plan to try tomorrow. This is getting F#@king old.

[Italian LX]

What kind of loads are you seeing at idle?

[04 Mach1]

Sorry didn't do a data logs just wanted to fire it up and make sure there weren't any other gaskets blown. But that don't make sense if i can turn up the base timing at idle and it goes away. I'll find that out tomorrow to.

[Disney Lincoln]

Is the timing advancing correctly with the SPOUT in place?

[86GT]

Pull plug number one and make sure TDC is TDC on the marks. Glowing headers is usually caused from retarded timing as you have found out.

Either the damper has slipped or the timing mark indicator on the block is the wrong one or something weird like that.

[QWKSNKE]

Do you still have the BTM hooked up? Do you think it maybe causing something weird to happen with the timing even when not in boost? :shrug:

[jwillburn119]

instead of beating your head in and tearing down reatrded shit, just go ahead and pull the timing cover and check to see if the little dots on the timing chain match up to the keyway on the crank... thats what i would do... what did you do to it... is the timing retarded on the timing chain?

[QWKSNKE]

instead of beating your head in and tearing down reatrded shit, just go ahead and pull the timing cover and check to see if the little dots on the timing chain match up to the keyway on the crank... thats what i would do... what did you do to it... is the timing retarded on the timing chain?

that is possible but his car was doing this before it was completley tore down a few weeks ago. He just reassembled the motor last week

[jwillburn119]

it could be that he fixed one problem, and caused another... its worth a shot... also.. couldnt it just be a bad tune that is causing it to run lean... because i know extremely lean conditions can cause glowing headers... and glowing other stuff too... is the temp off the charts... what are the headers made out of... those are all viable questions... i dont know what yall know... but thats just what is coming to my mind... also it has been my experience that even if the computer reads that it is giving the engine a set amount of fuel... it may not be recieving that amount... has it had an AIR FUEL guage put on it? one more thing at the sake of sounding like a rambler... if it smells like burnt metal and not burnt fuel at the exhaust side... its probably lean... and I know exactly how you feel about stuff getting old

i dont know your situation... how much boost VS. how big are your injectors... it sounds like you are starving your system

[04 Mach1]

Just checked sfi balancer with the old oem one I had,they are exactly the same as far as marks lining up. The cam is installed dot to dot. I thought lean but it has 50lbs injectors. Just don't make sense that i can set base timing a 25 and it does not glow the headers. When we drove it the other night I didn't check the timing until we got back and it was at 30 and run great(until I didn't pull anytiming out a wot thats why the heads were back off.)

[jwillburn119]

is it a new cam??? it is very possible that it was grinded incorrectly...

[04 Mach1]

same one I've had for years.

[jwillburn119]

thats pretty wierd... i will fall back to the AIR Fuel thing... and is that 25 degrees of timing b4 the SPOUT PIC is put back in... or the vacuum is reinstalled... whichever it is??? so you are looking at like... 45 degrees???

[04 Mach1]

yes 25 with spout out

[86GT]

Do you have a chip or tuner in it? If so did the global spark adder get a negative number.

[Italian LX]

Do you have a chip or tuner in it?
Yes, he has recently put a TwEECer R/T on it. :nice:

[coupe]

when you set it at 10, and plug in spout, what does computer "advance" it to? 20-25 sounds about good. If it's still 10, then it's not good. It's not your balancer man. it's in that timing advance program/curve.

[QWKSNKE]

when you set it at 10, and plug in spout, what does computer "advance" it to? 20-25 sounds about good. If it's still 10, then it's not good. It's not your balancer man. it's in that timing advance program/curve.

he is still on stock tune I believe

[86GT]

If TDC is actually TDC and the idle is around 18-22 then I would lean toward the timing chain and cam advance/retard.

What about a sloppy distributor or Thick Flim spark module on the side of the distributor. Those stupid things can do some weird things when they go out,

[Dale McPeters]

Sounds like it may be broke.........:jester:

[Disney Lincoln]

Sounds like timing isn't advancing. Did you check that?

[04 Mach1]

Set base timing at 10 degrees with spout out. Install spout at idle and advances it between 15-24. Also the mil light is coming on. It use to stayoff. Check the codes the only ones that concern me are

61- coolant temp signal low ckt ground
85- 0=CANP ckt fault/C=fuel at lean limit

I know what to check for on the code 61 but, the 85 I'm lost on any ideas

[Italian LX]

85- 0=CANP ckt fault/C=fuel at lean limit

I know what to check for on the code 61 but, the 85 I'm lost on any ideas
I believe CANP is the canister purge solenoid; however, I didn't know it would throw any codes. :think: Maybe check to see if it is operating correctly... that is, if you still have it on the car. :shrug:

[Dale McPeters]

I believe CANP is the canister purge solenoid; however, I didn't know it would throw any codes. :think: Maybe check to see if it is operating correctly... that is, if you still have it on the car. :shrug:

Brian,

If he has a way to tune the car he can fix this
so that it does not do the CANP check etc...
As for the ect code this needs to be fixed as it
will have an effect on fuel & timing to a certain degree.

I still think it is broke.....:jester:

[Italian LX]

Brian,

If he has a way to tune the car he can fix this
so that it does not do the CANP check etc...

I haven't had that solenoid on my car for three years now and have never seen the check engine light. . . or is this a soft code that doesn't thow the light? :think:

[86GT]

It should set the light because it is emissions related unless you have it turned off in the tunner.

I agree that the ECT will mess up the timing and fuel. If it is shorted then it is maxed out which will cause max retard and low AFR. This is how the EEC will try to cool the engine.

[Italian LX]

It should set the light because it is emissions related unless you have it turned off in the tunner.
No, the only thing I have turned off is the EGR, and I only turned that off a couple months ago when I removed the valve and put a blocking plate in its place.

[jwillburn119]

you are definately lean though... if you have a tweecer on it, cant you just turn up the fuel curve??? at least till you figure out what the problem is?

[QWKSNKE]

you are definately lean though... if you have a tweecer on it, cant you just turn up the fuel curve??? at least till you figure out what the problem is?

headers glowing at idle means rich. He has so much combustion that it is still combusting as it exits the head going into the header.

If they were glowing after driving down the road that would represent lean

[86GT]

headers glowing at idle means rich. He has so much combustion that it is still combusting as it exits the head going into the header.

If they were glowing after driving down the road that would represent lean

I would disagree only because he stated that all he has to do is advance the timing to get rid of the glow. The mixture is still the same.

[jwillburn119]

i am pretty sure that a lean car runs hotter... thats why lean cars glow the headers... and burn up plugs... and burn holes in the pistons... i am not dissagreeing with you, but that really doesnt sound right... and thats not what i have always been told... it just doesnt make sense... if the headers glow at idle because of a rich car... then all the car does as it runs... if the fuel curve is right... it flows more fuel, is what i mean... i know it flows more air too... but the computer will compensate... or should compensate for gained air... so if it is glowing at idle... i would think that would mean it is lean... and if you did drive it around with glowing headers at idle, they would just glow more... and eventually the motor would overheat, because the chamber would get too hot... and DETONATION would begin...

[jwillburn119]

okay... after alittle research, and afew calls... i have found 3 possibilities...
it is more than likely either... egr problems... a LEAN condition... or... a very severely retarded timing system... that will cause the rich condition that he was speaking of, and it will cause the unburnt fuel to ignite in your exhaust system... but the only way that can happen is if the timing is way off... and you already said that is was dead on... if it is rich and the timing is right... it will just blow the fuel through the system... because the spark plug has already finished sparking before the exhaust valve opens... so the fuel has no ignition source... and it just pours out the exhaust... and wreaks of fuel... no i would definately say you are lean... if you advance the timing, the lean condition is offset by an early spark... so ppm of fuel to air is better, and you have the intake valve open... so that helps too.... i am positive you are lean...

[86GT]

Can the car run without the Tweecer, just as a test. Maybe some parameter got changed that you can not see.

I agree that he must be lean. I believe it is a spark issue if the proble goes away when he sets it to 25°. He must have something off on the timing marks or in the tweecer. Maybe wrong firing order. Plugs swaped.

[jwillburn119]

He has so much combustion that it is still combusting as it exits the head going into the header.




moreover... thats not possible... combustion is caused by pressure buildup in the piston, mixed with an ignition source... but once you ignite the fuel air mixture, it ALL burns... the only thing left will be the air that didnt have enough fuel to burn off... or the fuel that didnt have enough air to burn off.. because fuel has to have air to burn... and air has to have fuel to burn... neither one will burn alone... so by the time the the exhaust valve opens... there is no more combustion... unless the timing is retarded enough that the spark lug fires late... which is a timing problem not a fuel problem...

[QWKSNKE]

I would disagree only because he stated that all he has to do is advance the timing to get rid of the glow. The mixture is still the same.

that is what I was told by two knowledgeable members a couple of months ago. If you can advance the timing and get rid of the glow then it is to rich at idle. :shrug:

[Dale McPeters]

that is what I was told by two knowledgeable members a couple of months ago. If you can advance the timing and get rid of the glow then it is to rich at idle. :shrug:

Lee, I had this problem with an engine recently
but it was due to the engine having the incorrect
cam in it and dumping to much fuel.
The headers and cats where blood red even at idle.
And not to mention "HOT".

I still think it is broke........:jester:

[04 Mach1]

Ok the car will run with out the tweecer but still causes the headers to glow. I beleive I have a intake leak that I'm trying to seal off that could be the whole problem, but not sure planning on pulling intake off this week(have oil in the upper intake don't have a pcv???that don't make sense). But the time I did get to take it for a ride it had a fresh set of plugs and base timing at roughly 35. I know the whole timing thing throw things off but could it possibly be the plugs??? Sorry had to take a break from it this weekend.

[QWKSNKE]

Marc,
I have a wideband now. Get a bung put in it :nice:

[04 Mach1]

Sweet that was the next thing I was about to order. Already have the bung welded in just have to pull my pos A/F gauge. I hope to have it all together by thuesday night.

[banditmwp]

Sweet that was the next thing I was about to order. Already have the bung welded in just have to pull my pos A/F gauge. I hope to have it all together by thuesday night.
I'm guessing by this you mean Wednesday? :shrug:


:poke: :jester:

[nxcoupe]

Ok, I read everything that you posted and the others. If the ignition timing at idle is too retarded, the headers will glow because the combustion process was started too late and is still burning when the exhaust valve opens, this isn't opinion, it's what happens.
A wideband is nice, but a 5 gas analyzer will help to diagnose. As the timing is advanced, the the combustion is more complete and will not glow the headers. I have had this problem with my own car, the distributor decided to loosen and retard itself. I didn't need an underhood light to see under the hood! You have a problem with either the balancer location, or the computer is receiving improper signals from a sensor and the computer is not giving you the proper ignition timing. You mentioned it is boucning from 15 to 20 degrees or so, it should be steady and over 20 degrees at idle with spout in.
I would go in this order, check your O2 sensor ground first(orange wire going to back of head), Mass air flow voltage at idle(this calculates load and timing is a factor of load for one), you have a code for ECT, but was the engine up to temp at the time? If not, then you have a typical code from a cold OBD1 engine. The lean limit may be an O2 sensor ground off or an O2 that is shorted, but you would need to use a DVOM to watch the O2 output at idle. Should alternate between .1 and .9 volts up and down after it is in closed loop.
Does your timing change from open loop to closed loop?

[86GT]

Well said, the only tid bit to note is the timing will vary if the spout is in. This is one way the EEC controls idle. If the spout is out the timing should be solid.

[04 Mach1]

Have confirmed the balancer is A OK. I understand the whole timing being retarded causing the header glow but what could cause the timing to bounce around so much?

[86GT]

If the timing is bouncing at an idle the EEC is not able to control idle with the ISC. The EEC first uses the ISC and then the timing to control idle. I am not sure why it is not able to control the idle. Try bumping the Idle set point up a tad until you figure it out.

[04 Mach1]

Just for the hell of it I decided to disconnect my recirluation valve. The car no longer glows the headers and timing is staying put????? Several months ago I read an article where they stated that the intake tube from the maf to S/C were poorly designed and that the recir valve need to blow the air back into the impeller so I made mine where it did just that I also stepped up the injectors at the same time. Could this have been to whole problem or do I just have a bad tune???

[Wall96cobra]

If your bypass valve recirculation hose is too close to your maf then it will "back wash" or blow back across the maf and F the maf reading up making the car run very rich......so yeah that sounds like it's your problem.

[QWKSNKE]

If your bypass valve recirculation hose is too close to your maf then it will "back wash" or blow back across the maf and F the maf reading up making the car run very rich......so yeah that sounds like it's your problem.


I agree.

But you will benefit from the new knowledge you are gaining and about to gain from doing your own tuning

[04 Mach1]

Mine is blowing right into the impeller that wouldn't cause a back wash condition.

[nxcoupe]

That is peculiar. I would put an anderson powerpipe on it, and be done with it. It doesn't have one on it now does it?
It does go back to my original suspicion about the MAF reading the load incorrectly. Pulsing air does just what you described, varies the timing, load calc, and fuel injected into the engine. Now all you have to do is figure out how to fix it!

[QWKSNKE]

That is peculiar. I would put an anderson powerpipe on it, and be done with it. It doesn't have one on it now does it?
It does go back to my original suspicion about the MAF reading the load incorrectly. Pulsing air does just what you described, varies the timing, load calc, and fuel injected into the engine. Now all you have to do is figure out how to fix it!

That is possible Mike. He is running a pro-m 75 for 50's and we have not got together and established a new MAF curve in his EEC yet

[nxcoupe]

I think you will fix it through that. Get with me and we can see about a mass air meter for it. Just might do the trick over that bullet.

[QWKSNKE]

Would leaking valves play a part in glowing headers, low vacuum, boost loss, etc?

[QWKSNKE]

Just an fyi. This car is still glowing headers. Everything has been changed on this bastard but the block and heads. Any more input. I don't want to see this car miss FFW again this year.

It has been over at ProSpeed the last couple of weekends and they haven't figured it out either

[Blown 5.0]

Just an fyi. This car is still glowing headers. Everything has been changed on this bastard but the block and heads. Any more input. I don't want to see this car miss FFW again this year.

It has been over at ProSpeed the last couple of weekends and they haven't figured it out either

On all post, I have not saw where TDC has been verified on the balancer. I have saw balancers and crank snouts be off by as much as 20+ degrees. Also the dots on the cam gears are more for reference than being set in stone perfect. there is no substitute for knowing where you timing and cam degree is at. A degree kit is cheap compared to motor parts.

[QWKSNKE]

I'll answer for him since he is tending to some family matters today.

He had a engine builder/machinist degree the cam in a few months ago. He also has used or compared various balancers. I can't remember if he actually tried a different crank during the last teardown a couple of months ago.

[qkjuicedpony]

what type balancers is he using.good ones or cheap replacements?


if he is referencing with other USED balancers then i would find a new one and look at it.

[QWKSNKE]

I know its a sfi but I don't know the brand

[qkjuicedpony]

what type of cam is he running and what are the specs on it....

[QWKSNKE]

what type of cam is he running and what are the specs on it....


I think it is a lunati he has been running for about 4-5years. All I know is the lift is around .544

[Italian LX]

Just an fyi. This car is still glowing headers. Everything has been changed on this bastard but the block and heads. Any
Actually, I'm pretty sure he threw a stock block in there too and it still was glowing the headers. :shrug:

[04 Mach1]

TDC has been established different block and heads have been swap out. Cam has been degree only to find it was a degree off heads have a fresh valve job. At the dyno yesterday with the wideband every thing was going right until you hold throttle at a steady rpm or you try WOT. Even with 80 psi of fuel preasure it would go rich for a split second then go lean. The A/F was 13.2 no matter were the FP was at (42-80). Has a brand new walbro 349(forced induction).Have run new fuel lines from the tank foward and swap a known FP regulator. Has a new 95mm MAF. Have swap in a different set of headers just to make sure the long tubes weren't thin causing the glow.

What does the ecm have to see to go into WOT? At WOT it is basically being run off of the TPS, MAF and what else?

[QWKSNKE]

Actually, I'm pretty sure he threw a stock block in there too and it still was glowing the headers. :shrug:

So the current combo is a completely different block?

[Italian LX]

So the current combo is a completely different block?
I think he has the original block in it now, but at one time (a few weeks ago) he dropped a different short block in there.

[EZ SPEED]

That thing is freaky

[CrazyInBlack]

with all that has been changed this is freaky

[qkjuicedpony]

are your injectors known to be good and actually what they are said to be?????

[04 Mach1]

Yes I have confirmed these to be 50lbs injectors. I have also swapped in a set of 19, 24, 42 and has done the exact same thing. It will do the same with or without the S/C belt.

[PonyChick]

Okay this may be far fetched or because of all the parts swaps that you've done it may be ruled out but I felt it was worth a mention. :shrug:

Completely random but I had a customer come in tonight for an Idle Air Control Valve (motor) and was talking about having a fox 302 that he had gotten an aftermarket IAC for at the parts house. After a short time of it being on the car he kept getting glowing headers. After checking all kinds of things on the car it ended up the aftermarket IAC valve had an extra spot that let in air. It was the correct aftermarket IAC valve just not made exactly OE. He put an OE dealer part back on the car and no more glowing headers. It was getting too much air.

It may not be the particular part but it could give you another area to be looking into. But with all the parts swaps you may have already ruled this out.

Hope it gets figured out!

[QWKSNKE]

Okay this may be far fetched or because of all the parts swaps that you've done it may be ruled out but I felt it was worth a mention. :shrug:

Completely random but I had a customer come in tonight for an Idle Air Control Valve (motor) and was talking about having a fox 302 that he had gotten an aftermarket IAC for at the parts house. After a short time of it being on the car he kept getting glowing headers. After checking all kinds of things on the car it ended up the aftermarket IAC valve had an extra spot that let in air. It was the correct aftermarket IAC valve just not made exactly OE. He put an OE dealer part back on the car and no more glowing headers. It was getting too much air.

It may not be the particular part but it could give you another area to be looking into. But with all the parts swaps you may have already ruled this out.

Hope it gets figured out!

that was done when he tried the intake kit off Angela's car a few months back.

Unless I am mistaken he has also removed the EFI at one time and tried a carb setup on it

[CrazyInBlack]

is the full exhaust on the car?

[QWKSNKE]

is the full exhaust on the car?

yes. It has full exhaust

[CrazyInBlack]

well if everything has been replaced, the thing left to look at is what is still there from the original setup?

[qkjuicedpony]

how much port work on the heads???

[Wickd GT]

Next thing to do, take the engine out and the supercharger and put it in another car and see if it does it. If not, there is something going on with the wiring of your car. You said that in another car the motor did not do the glowing, put the supercharger in it and see what happens.


edgar

[04 Mach1]

Might have found something

[QWKSNKE]

which harness is that?

[04 Mach1]

This is where it goes threw the firewall. I never thought to check it because I have never had it out this far. Plan on pulling up a wiring diagram today to trace the wires to see what they control. Just maybe this will get rid of the glowtechs.

[yellowSVT]

great work!!! glad u figured it out.

[04 Mach1]

Thanks. You'd think I would of found this problem a little earlier. Still have to put the car back together to see if indeed this is the problem. Not getting my hopes up yet. Both wires still have continutity so in less they were shorting out on the fire wall I might still have a problem.

[CrazyInBlack]

so I was right :chug: