New toys ...

[1sicklx]

Ok, I believe I have my engine planned out ...

Block: 331 Stroker
Heads: TFS Twisted Wedge (61cc)
Cam: TFS (221/225 dur | .499/.510 lift)
Intake: TFS R Series (12.2" Runner)
Rockers: TFS 1.6

TB: 70mm
MAF: 70mm (93 Cobra OEM)
ECC: 93 Cobra OEM
Fuel: 24 lb | AFPR | 190 lph

I was going to go with the Track Heat intake but decided that the extra cubes would make up any tq lost by stepping up to the R series. The design looks very simular to the Holley Systemax intake. My only concern is hood clearance since it is slightly taller.

The next question is how will the t5 hold up against this :D

Parts collection for this is going to run 2-3 months, and I'm about to order the TFS kit and put the stoker on layaway. Before I get started does anyone have any input about anything I might want to consider?

[One_live95]

The next question is how will the t5 hold up against this :D


i can answer that one for you...........:bomb: :jester: lol


sounds like a good build though....2-3 months i would say is good time to buy all that. :nice:

jason

[TheJeanyus]

:nice: I agree with the R intake. Good choice.

[1sicklx]

The next question is how will the t5 hold up against this :D
i can answer that one for you...........:bomb: :jester: lol

:shrug: going to have to find out the hard way, can't really afford to upgrade tranny right now. Gotta get the car painted ya know.

[One_live95]

believe me i understand.... here lately i have been pulling more lint out of my pockets than change.....lol


jason

[TheJeanyus]

I think the T5 will be ok as long as you're not launching on slicks or "Lee Fulmer" shifting all the time.

[qkjuicedpony]

the injectors,cam and mass air are too small....also have the heads milled down to 58cc chambers.

use the tfs stage 2 cam

[1sicklx]

the injectors,cam and mass air are too small....also have the heads milled down to 58cc chambers.

use the tfs stage 2 cam

For a daily driver??

Stage 2 Specs..

Duration: 224 | 232
Lift: .542 | .563
LSA: 112

[1sicklx]

I think the T5 will be ok as long as you're not launching on slicks or "Lee Fulmer" shifting all the time.

nah, no slicks but it may face some abuse by way of 315 DR's

[One_live95]

traction and a clutch that doesn't slip at all.... that is a bad equation, but i have found after breaking three that if you lift the gas pedal when you shift and don't try and kill it, they still hold up pretty well overall.... mine has for the time being....knock on wood


jason

[qkjuicedpony]

the stage one cam will choke the 331 and it wont reach full potential.i would also do 30lb injectors and a 80mm mass air with a 255 lph fuel pump...i would probably keep with the track heat intake also..but thats just me.

you will also need 1 3/4" headers

[1sicklx]

the stage one cam will choke the 331 and it wont reach full potential.i would also do 30lb injectors and a 80mm mass air with a 255 lph fuel pump...i would probably keep with the track heat intake also..but thats just me.

you will also need 1 3/4" headers

Thanks for the input. :chug:

[NightHawk756]

i would also do 30lb injectors and a 80mm mass air with a 255 lph fuel pump...

you will also need 1 3/4" headers

:stupid:

[EZMachN]

This is off topic but what ever happened to your '03 GT?

[1sicklx]

This is off topic but what ever happened to your '03 GT?

Long story, but the short of it is time, money, and frustration ... had to let it go.

[1sicklx]

you will also need 1 3/4" headers

You know anyone that offers 1 3/4 shorties, because long tubes are out of the question ... to low.

Also I'm using the stock catback from a 4.6.

[QWKSNKE]

:stupid:

+2

[1sicklx]

another area of growing concern is how truely "street-able" will this be? This will be my daily driver .. keep that in mind. Will this still be a good reliable choice with the stage II cam, or should I consider stepping it down to the 306 :shrug:

[Ponygirl]

I think the T5 will be ok as long as you're not launching on slicks or "Lee Fulmer" shifting all the time.
:rofl: :rofl:

[qkjuicedpony]

why cant you use longtubes???

i had a 514 big block in a tbird that was lowered and the motor was also dropped an inch...it had 2 inch longtubes and they had a lot of clearance

[1sicklx]

why cant you use longtubes???

i had a 514 big block in a tbird that was lowered and the motor was also dropped an inch...it had 2 inch longtubes and they had a lot of clearance

The car isn't just lowered ... it's as low as you can possibly go. I'm already worried about the front air dam clearing some of the pot holes on south side, I may end up having to raising it back up just a little.

[coupe]

There are way more cam choices than what are mentioned here. And it would be worth the extra to get the right cam than be limited to a TFS choice. You can keep the 331, but the cam should be around 224 to 226º and lift really would like to be around .542". I think you should put a motorsport X-303 cam in it. That cam is versatile and has the perfect numbers for your setup...and you can probably find one CHEAP. Get your stroker-kit for use with TW heads & you'll be fine with the X-303 -->.542" lift.
:yup:

[1sicklx]

That is an option, because at this point I'm considering getting the whole long block from DSS which comes with you're choice of alphabet cam. With the R-series Intake this combo should make plenty of HP but how do you suppose the tq would look like? It'll still need to have a hefty amount of ft-lbs to get the 3500+ lb pig rolling.

[slvrbullit]

You will want to go with long tubes, at least that is what three different MFG's told me before I got my DSS 331. I called DSS, CHP, and Ed Curtis and they all suggested 1-3/4" LT's because the 331 like to breath.



As for your hp and tq numbers guessing, after my motor had about 800 miles I took it to the dyno and was not pleased with the HP numbers but the torque was 360rwtq, as for the power I was making 317rwhp but that was with a 75mm maf, since I have added a 80mm maf and tweecer but have no numbers yet but I am guessing I am making 350 rwhp and 400+rwtq now accordind to the times I have ran and the weight of the car.

[1sicklx]

You will want to go with long tubes, at least that is what three different MFG's told me before I got my DSS 331. I called DSS, CHP, and Ed Curtis and they all suggested 1-3/4" LT's because the 331 like to breath.



Then I may end up having to swap the springs out to raise it back up some, or consider going with a 302 based combo so I can keep the look it has now. :think:

Just for kicks what street reliable combo would you go with for a 302-306?

[coupe]

Just saw a guy post on hardcore50 who went 10.xx @ 123 N/A with a 347 and 1 5/8" headers. I think you should keep the 331, put some nice 1 5/8" shorties on it and a good H-pipe. Stick in the X-cam and run the rest of the stuff you said. The car will make 350 to the tires pretty easily. Shorties will get you where you want to go.

[1sicklx]

Thanks for the feedback :nice:

[1sicklx]

I gave DSS a call today and talked about some different options. They recommended a the 347 over the 331. We discussed the longevity and reliability of the 331 vs. 347 and they said that although the 331 was a little easier on the block than the 347 that it wasn't a big enough difference that they wouldn't recommend it for a daily driver. He also said that with a heavier car such as mine that it would benefit from the extra tq the 347 offered. So the jury is still out on which one I'm going with ... :think:

We also discussed cam and intake options (x303, TFS Stage 2 & 3, Track heat, Systemax, TFS R) They recommended the TFS stage 2 with either the track heat or systemax intake for a daily driver.

Heads comes down between AFR 185, Twisted Wedge, CNC'd Twisted Wedge.

My head hurts. :shrug: I'm going to put my order in Friday, so anything you have to share ... I'm listening. :chug:

[uvbnhad]

Something that comes to my mind is that if you are going to go with a 347, why not go ahead and get a 351? The cost you are going to shell out for a 347 probably won't even compare to just starting out with a 351 and going from there.

You could probably find a 351 out of an torrino or something at a pull apart or somewhere else. Have it hottanked, magnafluxed, etc. and build it on the side. Once it's built, swap out the 5.0 and then drop in the 351.

[QWKSNKE]

because a 351 would not be a direct drop in. There are exhaust issues, taller engine, etc.

347 may not be a bad idea to do. I have never owned one so I cannot make any suggestions.

[Dale McPeters]

347 w/10.5-1, AFR-185, TFS-R, 75mm TB, Custom cam, good maf etc. etc......;)

[LeeH]

347 w/10.5-1, AFR-185, TFS-R, 75mm TB, Custom cam, good maf etc. etc......;)


LOL,
Good answer:jester:

[1sicklx]

347 w/10.5-1, AFR-185, TFS-R, 75mm TB, Custom cam, good maf etc. etc......;)

How would 10.5 compression work IF I was to add say ... 100 shot down the road?

[TheJeanyus]

How would 10.5 compression work with say 100 shot down the road?
Nitrous loves compression - it would work great. That wouldn't be very boost friendly if you ever decided to go that route, though.

[QWKSNKE]

Nitrous loves compression - it would work great. That wouldn't be very boost friendly if you ever decided to go that route, though.

x2

[1sicklx]

Ok after asking around on numerous different boards and making a few more phone calls this is what I've narrowed it down to ...

Short Block: 347 (331 still a possibility though)
Heads: AFR 185
Cam: TFS Stage 2 | TFS Stage 3
Intake: Track Heat | TFS R | Systemax

I know it doesn seem like it but I think I'm narrowing it down a little in my mind. :jester:

[qkjuicedpony]

i would do the 347 with a 185 head and a CAM MOTIONS custom grind cam and the systemax intake

[1sicklx]

i would do the 347 with a 185 head and a CAM MOTIONS custom grind cam and the systemax intake

If I order the whole long block from DSS then I don't think I can get a custom cam.

You know ... if I just buy the short block and then buy a track heat combo and upgrade the cam I could save my self a good bit of money :think:

But that would mean I'd have to give up the AFR heads and go with the twisted wedge.

But that would give me the complete longblock with intake for less than I could get the same longblock minus intake from them.

[qkjuicedpony]

call pro line race engines at 770-516-0745 and talk with them about a shortblock.they do all of our engines and they are somewhat local to you as well........all the guys know their shit there and can get your whole shortblock and a custom ground cam for you.

[1sicklx]

call pro line race engines

What's their pricing like?

[coupe]

How's about a 347 with Eagle 4340 crank, Eagle H-beams, SRP flat-tops?
$2399 pro-assembled by BB&T.
And they're in Memphis so you could pick up on a Saturday :D

(800) 416-6199 - ask for Derrick; tell him Matt from SPEC Clutch sent ya.
http://www.bbandtracing.com

[Sendero]

Do 347 still have "life-span" oiling issues that the 331 was supposed to solve? (ie the rod to bore angle)

[1sicklx]

Do 347 still have "life-span" oiling issues that the 331 was supposed to solve? (ie the rod to bore angle)

That has been my biggest concern, although DSS claims that they have addressed the issue they still say that the 331 is still "easier on the block" but not a big enough difference that they wouldn't use a 347 for a DD. :shrug:

That's their take on it anyway.

[Italian LX]

Do 347 still have "life-span" oiling issues that the 331 was supposed to solve? (ie the rod to bore angle)
My thought on that is that if you have to worry about those issues, then you probably shouldn't be building a stroker motor -- you're best bet is to stick with a stock stroked 306.... or maybe even a long-rod version if you are really paranoid.

You could go to a 351 motor to resolve that rod-ratio problem, but then you would have to deal with the extra weight and the awful 3" mains.

Anytime you get into bigger power, you're going to decrease the longevity of a motor -- it basiclly turns into one big balancing act. If you can't afford to put some weight on "decreased longevity" side of the scale, then you're going to have to sacrifice a few tenths at the drag strip.

I'm not saying that you have to settle for a short-lived motor, just be aware that increased power will usually equal a shorter lifespan. Also, be sure to use quality parts and be absolutely sure that you trust your machinist an engine builder!

[NightHawk756]

My thought on that is that if you have to worry about those issues, then you probably shouldn't be building a stroker motor -- you're best bet is to stick with a stock stroked 306.... or maybe even a long-rod version if you are really paranoid.

You could go to a 351 motor to resolve that rod-ratio problem, but then you would have to deal with the extra weight and the awful 3" mains.

Anytime you get into bigger power, you're going to decrease the longevity of a motor -- it basiclly turns into one big balancing act. If you can't afford to put some weight on "decreased longevity" side of the scale, then you're going to have to sacrifice a few tenths at the drag strip.

I'm not saying that you have to settle for a short-lived motor, just be aware that increased power will usually equal a shorter lifespan. Also, be sure to use quality parts and be absolutely sure that you trust your machinist an engine builder!

Yeah, but you know as well as I do that, if someone says that a 347 won't last as long as a 331, then they'll go with a 331. Just for the simple fact that they want as much for their hard earned money as they can get. That's just simple human nature.

If it's a well-known oiling problem with said stroker kit, then most will go to another stroker to stay away from that problem. Now, I have heard things about different companies supposedly fixing that problem. Although I still went with a 331 just to stay away from having a "chance" that the problem hasn't been addressed properly. And I know that building a stroker motor is already shortening the motor's life expectency, but I'm definately not going to take more of a chance to shorten it anymore. ;)

[coupe]

You have to understand the problem that was causing the early 347's to smoke and wear out. It was not the rod/stroke ratio.
The first 347's came out and they were using regular ring-sets like for a 302. The 347 does have more side-loading on the pistons, so requires a little more ring tension...but not too much or it will scuff really bad. Finding the right rings is easy today...and the right shop to set them up correctly is easier too.

These are the misconceptions they're telling you about over on hardcore50 where you posted this same thread. The 347 is fine nowadays.
But if you cannot live with it, a 331 will give you just about the same level of power...but it still needs the right rings.

[nxcoupe]

I have built a bunch of 347's, 342's, 331's and 327's. All of them work equally well. The larger cubes make a little more power, but more torque down low. Neither uses oil or has wear issues. Coupe is correct, the older 347 kits used low tension oil rings and had oil consumption issues, if you call 1 qt between oil changes an issue. Heck the 87-89 engines were considered normal to use that much oil, go figure.
I would run a 342/347 with the Twisted wedge package. You won't find enough power in the 185's to offset the cost difference. Use the stage 2 cam, and 15/8 shorties. You aren't building a max hp vehicle and then planning to use it as a dd, so just build what you want/can afford, and be happy with the results. It will be substantially more power than you are currently used to.
FWIW, my shop offers a 342/FRPP sportsman block based engine with forged crank, pistons and H beam or lightweight I beam rods, balanced for 3149. Get with Lee, he may be able to sweeten that deal for ya.

[1sicklx]

It will be substantially more power than you are currently used to.

No doubt there ... a 13 sec car is the fastest I've ever owned. :jester:

[Craig K.]

My brother and I have a friend who builds mostly vintage W2W racing engines, however he also builds many street/strip stuff as well.
I had asked him about this same issue a few years ago, and he had stated the same issues as coupe.

He had also told me that he has built many 347's that are DD cars, these have (at the time) seen over 20k miles pushing 500 HP (flywheel) NA with no oil consumption issues.

I firmly believe that it is in the set-up and who is doing the machine work for you.

[1sicklx]

Ok, after a lot of thought and crunching numbers I went with the 331

Now cough cough do I dare play mix and match?? :popcorn:

AFR 185 Heads
TFS Stage 2 Cam
Systemax Intake

I'm sure some of you are sick of my indecissiveness (spck) but I want to be sure I'm going to get my moneys worth out of this investment.

[TheJeanyus]

Styemax Intake
I would not want an intake that maximizes styes. :huh:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stye

[1sicklx]

I would not want an intake that maximizes styes. :huh:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stye

:doh:

[slvrbullit]

I thibnk you will be pleased with the end result. I have no complaints out of my setup so far.

[1sicklx]

:eek: I found the complete engine I've been looking for .. for an awesome price, but my $$ seems to be caught up in the system somewhere and it looks like I'm gonna miss out because Uncle Sam takes his sweet arse time when it's his turn to pay out. :nono: It sucks to know the money is there and coming.

347 Forged crank, rods, pistons
Ported TW heads
TFS Stage 2 Cam
Complete pan to intake ...

Anybody want to loan me 3 grand until next week :jester:

[TheJeanyus]

Seems like that's the way it always works. Once you get the money the prices on everything will double, or no one will have anything in stock. :banghead:

[1sicklx]

Yeah, this money was suppose to be hear over a week ago ... :(

Looks like I'm just going to have to do things the hard (and slow) way. :notnice: oh well, things could be worse I suppose.

[1sicklx]

:banana:

Good news, the guy said he'd hold it for me if I could make a small deposit on it until I got the money ... so it looks like I may get a break after all. :)

Stock roller block
Eagle forged crank
Eagle forged H-beams
J&E forged pistons
Probe girdle
Clevite bearings
Plasma-moly file fit rings
Blueprinted Melling HV oil pump
ARP oil pump d/s, clearanced correctly
ARP main studs
ARP rod bolts
ARP Head Studs
TFS Track Heat Twisted Wedge heads, ported, flow~282/236@.600, springs upgraded to .600" lift.
Comp roller rockers
TFS hardened pushrods
TFS #2 cam, degree'd in correctly
SFI dampener
New water pump

[Italian LX]

Wow, sounds like a nice set-up. :nice:

Do you know what compression ratio it is?

[1sicklx]

not sure yet as we're still going over the finer details of the possible transaction ... here's what he's said about it so far ... I'm going to ask about the compression ratio in our next pm exchange, I'm thinking it must be somewhere between 9-10:1

Motor was assembled to run decent n/a, or under mild boost on pump gas. Has less than 700 miles on it. With 9psi from an S-trim it put down 538rwhp@5800 rpm.

[1sicklx]

Here's a video of it running with the sc installed ...

http://media.putfile.com/Novi-2000

[Italian LX]

Here's a video of it running with the sc installed ...

http://media.putfile.com/Novi-2000
So, how much did it put down with that Novi on it? :shrug:

[1sicklx]

With 9psi from an S-trim it put down 538rwhp@5800 rpm

Didn't say what it put down with the Novi just the Vortech.

Compression ratio is approx. 9.6:1