Anyone running a wideband [Archive]

Sendero

01-21-2005, 02:48 PM

I'm looking at PLX and Zeitronix, myself. And datalogging throught the Tweecer R/T, of course.

I'm really diggin' the Zeitronix display, though. Looks pretty spiffy, and much smallery than the PLX unit. Course, don't even have to have the display, could just do straight datalogging, but gotta have a little bling...

I never could get a straight if the Zeltronics worked with the R/T Datalogger. Do you have any info because I like display too!

93Cobra#2771

01-21-2005, 02:51 PM

http://tweecer.oplnk.net/viewtopic.php?t=3083

93Cobra#2771

01-21-2005, 02:53 PM

I really like the zeitronix display - looks like it would fit right up to the cubbyhole below my radio. The PLX doesn't look like it would fit there without sticking out too far...

QWKSNKE

01-21-2005, 03:07 PM

I won a wideband setup at a event this past year. Unfortunately I never received it. :mad:

Wicked

01-21-2005, 04:08 PM

I really like the zeitronix display - looks like it would fit right up to the cubbyhole below my radio. The PLX doesn't look like it would fit there without sticking out too far...

As small as the Zeitronix display is it would be hard to read real time. The bigger display would be better to watch out of the corner of your eye. I like the analog gage that comes with the Wideband Commander for that purpose.

I also like both the units you listed for logging purposes.

I would prefer something that used the NTK sensors as I can get those babies for free.

Italian LX

01-21-2005, 07:26 PM

I like the analog gage that comes with the Wideband Commander for that purpose.
Analog meters are great for keeping real time tabs on your tune. But just because a particular brand of WB doesn't have an analog meter, doesn't mean you can't have the option.

Since the narrow-band output of any wide-band O2 mimics the voltage of your stock sensors, you can actually use it to run an AutoMeter AF guage. Since this output is more precise than the factory O2's, the AutoMeter guage is no longer just a "light show" and becomes a usable "at a glance" AF diagnostic meter. :nice:

Wicked

01-21-2005, 07:34 PM

Analog meters are great for keeping real time tabs on your tune. But just because a particular brand of WB doesn't have an analog meter, doesn't mean you can't have the option.

Since the narrow-band output of any wide-band O2 mimics the voltage of your stock sensors, you can actually use it to run an AutoMeter AF guage. Since this output is more precise than the factory O2's, the AutoMeter guage is no longer just a "light show" and becomes a usable "at a glance" AF diagnostic meter. :nice:

Yeah I know what you mean...i was just saying the analog is easier to read in your peripheral vision. But yeah, I have seen the analog output for the autometer a/f gage. I had saved up for one of these things at one point then had to pay some bills.

99LS1

01-21-2005, 10:09 PM

Zeitronix is nice, friend yo uses it in his talon, works great, plus it's pretty easy to use on the laptop.

96GTS

01-22-2005, 07:18 PM

Here's a pic of the Zeitronix...

96GTS

01-22-2005, 07:21 PM

The AEM has the best of both worlds IMO (digital display and "light show")
http://www.jegs.com/photos/017304211sensor.jpg
You can mount it in any gauge pod thats easier to look at...a-pillar, steering column, dash clock pod, or under the radio...

http://www.jegs.com/logos/aem.gif
AEMâ€™s Gauge-Type Wideband UEGO (Universal Exhaust Gas Oxygen) Controller features an LED readout and sweeping LED ''needle'' that changes colors as Air/Fuel Ratio changes from rich to lean. The unitâ€™s 52mm (2-1/16â€) gauge housing fits in most gauge pods and can be remotely mounted virtually anywhere. No laptop required for monitoring.
UEGO (Universal Exhaust Gas Oxygen) Key Features:

Bosch sensor included
24 Color-coded LED display lights
Integrated three-digit display in real time
User-programmable 0-5v analog output included for use with data loggers and ANY engine management system
Does not oscillate Air/Fuel Ratio reading like narrow band sensors
Serial data stream included for output of Air/Fuel Ratio (RS 232)
Accurate to 0.1 Air/Fuel Ratio

Wicked

01-22-2005, 08:10 PM

Yeah but for the money that one cost, I'd go with one that datalogs and has the analog output to use with a autometer lightshow gage.

96GTS

01-22-2005, 09:17 PM

Yeah but for the money that one cost, I'd go with one that datalogs and has the analog output to use with a autometer lightshow gage.
:scratch: That has a light show better than the autometer....and it datalogs...

Why piggy back an autometer to your wideband to your datalogger, when you can get all 3 w/ just the aem and datalogger?

Italian LX

01-22-2005, 09:22 PM

:scratch: That has a light show better than the autometer....
How is that light show any better than an AutoMeter? :think:

99LS1

01-22-2005, 09:23 PM

the zeitronix display is really easy to read, not like you need to squint or stare at the numbers to figure out what's going on. yo's displays a/f, lambda (sp?), boost, and egt.

96GTS

01-22-2005, 09:44 PM

How is that light show any better than an AutoMeter? :think:
B/c if you want to use the light show to get a quick look, it actually has numerical values and not just lean/rich/stoich...

EZ SPEED

01-23-2005, 04:24 AM

I really want a WB to go with my SCT Pro Racer software and Raptor Datalogger.....man I wish that shit would hurry up and get here. :shake:

Wicked

01-23-2005, 09:00 AM

:scratch: That has a light show better than the autometer....and it datalogs...

Why piggy back an autometer to your wideband to your datalogger, when you can get all 3 w/ just the aem and datalogger?

I gotcha, I didn't realize it datalogged as well. :nice: I do like the digital readout.

Brandon, FYI, A/F is calculated from Lambda, or vice versa. Like HP and torque. You may already know that though. ;)

99LS1

01-23-2005, 09:16 AM

I know, I was saying it just displays both at the same time.

Wicked

01-23-2005, 09:38 AM

I know, I was saying it just displays both at the same time.
:chug:

93Cobra#2771

01-24-2005, 09:18 AM

Since the narrow-band output of any wide-band O2 mimics the voltage of your stock sensors, you can actually use it to run an AutoMeter AF guage. Since this output is more precise than the factory O2's, the AutoMeter guage is no longer just a "light show" and becomes a usable "at a glance" AF diagnostic meter.
Even better than that, you can get a converter that allows the autometer a/f gauge to read correctly the wide band signal from a wideband. I know PLX sells them, and autometer sells them, but am not sure about the others. You would have to know the transfer curve for whatever particular wideband you are using (they are different, kinda like a MAF transfer curve)...

93Cobra#2771

01-24-2005, 09:19 AM

This is why you can get some wide bands without any gauges - allows you to either simply datalog it, or use your own a/f gauge to match all your other gauges...

Sendero

01-31-2005, 07:01 PM

Richard,

You made a decision yet? I am seriously leaning towards the Zeitronix because I like the idea of not having to hack my stock EEC harness.

Does the PLX Device have any advantages that I am not aware of?

99LS1

01-31-2005, 08:44 PM

have you looked at innovative lm1 or aem unit?

and haven't really looked at this to see if it's dsm specific, but it's there.

http://www.techedge.com.au/vehicle/wbo2/wbo2.htm

93Cobra#2771

02-01-2005, 06:44 AM

Haven't yet made a decision. One thing to note on narrowband emulation - some don't like running two types of O2's. Even though it should be identical, you still have a conversion process happening with the wideband that's not happening with the NB. This could effect how you car runs, as the conversion does slow down the reaction time of the signal going back to the EEC from the WB.

One school of thought is to run dual widebands. That way the conversion is the same between both banks of cylinders. Another is to simply avoid the narrow band emulation all together and simply have an additional bung welded in. I have heard that PLX has said not to mix and match O2's as well.

I will say that there are some out there running narrowband emulation without any problems that I'm aware of. So, the short story is that I still haven't decided. :D

EZ SPEED

02-01-2005, 07:03 AM

As soon as I get my SCT Pro Racer software and get my access to the Modular Depot tuning room, I am gonna' see what brand of WB most everyone is going with.
I am thinking seriously about getting one.

tacbear

02-07-2005, 09:14 AM

Anyone have prices on this stuff, I will be installing one on "Project V2 SQ", right now I am leaning towards a Wideband Commander, I can get one from T & J for about $465.00.

Italian LX

02-07-2005, 09:21 AM

Anyone have prices on this stuff, I will be installing one on "Project V2 SQ", right now I am leaning towards a Wideband Commander, I can get one from T & J for about $465.00.
$445 (shipped) on Ebay. :shrug:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=4524200446

However, I would think it would be worth spending the extra $20 through Tim; that way you have a good custoimer relation and an easy point of cantact if something goes wrong with it. :nice:

99LS1

02-13-2005, 01:02 PM

$445 (shipped) on Ebay. :shrug:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=4524200446

However, I would think it would be worth spending the extra $20 through Tim; that way you have a good custoimer relation and an easy point of cantact if something goes wrong with it. :nice:

Just don't make any needless, idiotic remarks while you're there :jester:

tacbear

02-13-2005, 02:02 PM

Just don't make any needless, idiotic remarks while you're there :jester:

:shrug:

99LS1

02-13-2005, 02:31 PM

See wall's "i want my car back" thread

99LS1

02-17-2005, 09:34 AM

Sendero

02-17-2005, 11:52 AM

I was re-reading this thread, and found this.

http://www.plxdevices.com/InstallationInstructions/M-400_500PlugPlay_Install.pdf

Nathan I wasn't aware that the plx required you to touch your ecu? from the looks of it it's not that way. It's pretty much plug/n/play. The Zeitronix did require (at least from I remember yo telling me) that some wires did have to be cut into the ecu, but it was only a handful.

From what I have seen on PLX installs, they require you to tap into the EVP sensor voltage circuit. This essentially disables your EGR function unless you add a DATAQ system. The Zeltronix was the only one that I confirmed didn't require me to hack my harness. (Provided you don't run the NB emulation for the ECU) Its just one sensor which runs to the controller and the serial cable to the laptop.

If I am wrong, someone please correct me because I stared at the "submit order" button last night for about 2 hours!

AngelEyes

02-17-2005, 11:54 AM

If I am wrong, someone please correct me because I stared at the "submit order" button last night for about 2 hours!

I thought you were getting one for Valentines Day? :shrug:

Sendero

02-17-2005, 11:54 AM

I thought you were getting one for Valentines Day? :shrug:

Backup plan.

AngelEyes

02-17-2005, 11:56 AM

Backup plan.
ahh. :nice:

93Cobra#2771

02-17-2005, 01:09 PM

Sendero

02-17-2005, 02:45 PM

Wait a minute - you're saying you have to hack a pin in the EEC to use it, even if you don't run narrow band emulation? It's not stand alone?

I thought they were ALL stand alone units, unless you were datalogging them with a tweecer through your EVP or DATAQ?

I'm pretty sure with NB emulation that you have to tie into the harness somewhere. But when I say "hack the harness" I mean something along the lines of cuting wires. (Even if it is for the EVP) I don't like making those kinds of modifications unless I absolutely have to, which is why I am leaning towards the Zeitronix unit. From what I have seen you just plug the DB9 Serial connection into your laptop and set CalCon to read it.

99LS1

02-17-2005, 04:37 PM

You might want to double check w/ the zeitronix, yoshki did have to cut into a few ecu wires.

NightHawk756

03-09-2005, 09:24 PM

I'm thinking along the lines of the Zeitronix myself. I may just use their smaller display. So I won't have to "search" so to speak for the a/f around the other 3 readings it gives at the same time while on the track or street. I really want something simple to see at a very quick glance.

I like the wideband commander since it actually has a warning light when you happen to hit a pre-programmed a/f. But I would rather have a digital gauge than another regular gauge to have to find a place to put it. :shrug:

EZ SPEED

03-10-2005, 03:04 AM

I finally went with the AEM wideband. It has the digital and the A/F bar around the outer edge.

And it has a connection to tie it into my Raptor Datalogger :nice:

The price was right also $375

NightHawk756

03-10-2005, 06:17 AM

I finally went with the AEM wideband. It has the digital and the A/F bar around the outer edge.

And it has a connection to tie it into my Raptor Datalogger :nice:

The price was right also $375That's the price just for the gauge and sensor?? Or for the whole kit with their datalogger?? Because I'm looking at other kits, like the Zeitronix that is around that price with their datalogger and software.

EZ SPEED

03-10-2005, 07:00 AM

That's the price just for the gauge and sensor?? Or for the whole kit with their datalogger?? Because I'm looking at other kits, like the Zeitronix that is around that price with their datalogger and software.

No data logger with the AEM, I didnt need it since I have the Raptor :nice:

I think you can get it with the datalogger and software....read more about it here http://www.aempower.com/product_ems.asp

NightHawk756

03-10-2005, 04:56 PM

No data logger with the AEM, I didnt need it since I have the Raptor :nice:[/URL] That's what I thought. It would end up being more than the Zeitronix that comes with a datalogger and software.

99LS1

03-10-2005, 04:58 PM

:yup: 280$ for a complete package is hard to beat.

NightHawk756

03-10-2005, 07:38 PM

:yup: 280$ for a complete package is hard to beat. For the Zeitronix or AEM?? If the Zeitronix, then let me know who has it for that price. ;)

QWKSNKE

03-10-2005, 07:41 PM

brad,

Why do you need a datalogger? Aren't you going to run a F.A.S.T system. Don't they have datalog provisions?

NightHawk756

03-10-2005, 08:05 PM

brad,

Why do you need a datalogger? Aren't you going to run a F.A.S.T system. Don't they have datalog provisions?Well, that was my plan Lee. I actually had decided on AEM since it had boost control, launch control etc. But it's really pricey for a car that isn't going to be a dedicated drag car. It came to just over $2000 and that's without all the dyno time to get it right. So, I've decided to let Chris Johnson tune it with SCT and then I'll use an EBC and WB02 just to keep tabs on stuff. ;)

QWKSNKE

03-10-2005, 08:12 PM

ahhhh..gotcha

99LS1

03-10-2005, 08:33 PM

NightHawk756

03-10-2005, 08:50 PM

Here ya go brad. Like I said earlier, my friend yo2001 uses this in his low 12s talon. The screen really is very readable, even w/ 4 things going on at once.

http://www.zeitronix.com/Products/zt2/zt2.htm
I knew that price sounded awful low. If you scroll down to the bottom of the page you'll see that the $279 price is without the display and the boost and EGT sensors. The full price is $399. ;)

99LS1

03-10-2005, 09:00 PM

:doh: If you weren't dead set on the display, I think you can route the signal to an a/f gauge.

NightHawk756

03-10-2005, 09:45 PM

:doh: If you weren't dead set on the display, I think you can route the signal to an a/f gauge.Nope, I want a display since it's easier to see at a quick glance. Plus it's not near as large as a gauge and easier to mount. ;) I'm still getting this kit though. Even at $399 it's a good deal.

99LS1

03-10-2005, 09:50 PM

You can always ship it to my house first, I'll test it out for you for little to no charge :jester:

NightHawk756

03-10-2005, 09:53 PM

You can always ship it to my house first, I'll test it out for you for little to no charge :jester:Sure!! :slap: :jester:

Italian LX

03-11-2005, 05:18 AM

Nope, I want a display since it's easier to see at a quick glance.
You keep on saying you want a gauge that you can see at a quick glance, but my question is why?

Although a highly visible A/F meter is essential for tuning, it's not so necessary during normal driving. If you have a good safe tune, your A/F shouldn't vary enough to cause problems.

Also, even if you do develop a problem, you're not going to notice it on a digital display unless it has some sort of alarm or changes colors as it enters a lean condition.

If you really want something tha's going to keep you alert on your air/fuel, I think you'd be better of running something like an AutoMeter gauge (running off of the analog out of the wideband) located on your a-pillar. That way, you have a highly visible, multi-color display that can alert you to sudden chages in your fuel mixture; then when you see someting that may be an issue, you can divert your attention to your digital gauge located elsewhere.

Just my $.02.

NightHawk756

03-11-2005, 06:14 AM

You keep on saying you want a gauge that you can see at a quick glance, but my question is why?

Although a highly visible A/F meter is essential for tuning, it's not so necessary during normal driving. If you have a good safe tune, your A/F shouldn't vary enough to cause problems.

Also, even if you do develop a problem, you're not going to notice it on a digital display unless it has some sort of alarm or changes colors as it enters a lean condition.

If you really want something tha's going to keep you alert on your air/fuel, I think you'd be better of running something like an AutoMeter gauge (running off of the analog out of the wideband) located on your a-pillar. That way, you have a highly visible, multi-color display that can alert you to sudden chages in your fuel mixture; then when you see someting that may be an issue, you can divert your attention to your digital gauge located elsewhere.

Just my $.02.So your telling me that a regular gauge with or without numbers on it but has a light or needle pointed to said number or rich, lean stoich is quicker to see at a glance then an actual bright red digital display of the actual A/F number??

The only reason I say I want something for a quick glance at the track or on the street is when I'm making a run at the track or getting on it on the street. So if I see something strange, then I can back out of it. Actually everyday driving would be fine with any other type gauge.

And the tune isn't always safe. That's why most tuners, including Tim, are suggesting the Wideband Commander since it actually has a warning light if you hit a pre-determined A/F. I just don't want to have another huge gauge in my car. I like the LCD displays because they're flat and can be mounted anywhere. Especially where Darren mounted his. ;)

Italian LX

03-11-2005, 06:59 AM

So your telling me that a regular gauge with or without numbers on it but has a light or needle pointed to said number or rich, lean stoich is quicker to see at a glance then an actual bright red digital display of the actual A/F number??
I'm not saying that the bright red digital display is hard to read; I'm saying that out of the corner of your eye, the digital display is going to look the same whether it say 13.0 or 16.5. Something like the AutoMeter gauge has a bar graph that changes colors as it gets in the different zones and you can make out the general condition of your A/F without having to conciously read a gauge.

The only reason I say I want something for a quick glance at the track or on the street is when I'm making a run at the track or getting on it on the street.
Brad, I know you have plenty experience going down the track... can you honestly tell me that you will have time to constantly watch and read what is being displayed on the digital display the entire 12 seconds of your run. :think:

. . .the Wideband Commander since it actually has a warning light if you hit a pre-determined A/F.
Okay, if you have this feature, than that would be fine because you could put the light where it would catch your eye, and you wouldn't have to rely on actually looking at a gauge and reading it while you're trying to race. It would also alert you under normal driving if something unexpectidly went wrong and caused a lean condition. :nice:

EZ SPEED

03-11-2005, 07:01 AM

The only reason I say I want something for a quick glance at the track or on the street is when I'm making a run at the track or getting on it on the street. So if I see something strange, then I can back out of it.

Yep, thats why I bought the AEM with the digital display, so I can watch it when I go full throttle. I saw the damn thing hit 13.3 the other day (first time WOT with the new tune) and I got off the throttle, but not soon enough..I fried 4 plugs (broken porclein) :fuss:

So I did like the SCT manual says and bought some copper plugs for tuning (NGK BR7EF's) for $1.59 a plug insted of the damn Denso's that were fried that cost $80 for the set :fuss:

QWKSNKE

03-11-2005, 07:17 AM

Brad, I know you have plenty experience going down the track... can you honestly tell me that you will have time to constantly watch and read what is being displayed on the digital display the entire 12 seconds of your run. :think:

:lol:

Hell I couldn't watch my generic autometer x-mas light gauge at the track when I was on nitrous. I know I can't watch it on the supercharger.

Sounds like the wideband commander would be the way to go though.

Not to start anything, I completely disagree with tunes changing. Once your tune is dialed in, its not going to change unless you change something on the car. That's why street tuning for several days or even a week is very important. Helps you cover all your bases when tuning.

93Cobra#2771

03-11-2005, 07:52 AM

NightHawk756

03-11-2005, 09:20 AM

Brad, I know you have plenty experience going down the track... can you honestly tell me that you will have time to constantly watch and read what is being displayed on the digital display the entire 12 seconds of your run. :think: This is why I said "quick" glance. I don't "constantly" watch anything while going down the track. It's impossible. When I was making runs in the coupe, I glanced at my oil pressure at least twice during the run. I want to be able to do this with the A/F. ;)

Okay, if you have this feature, than that would be fine because you could put the light where it would catch your eye, and you wouldn't have to rely on actually looking at a gauge and reading it while you're trying to race. It would also alert you under normal driving if something unexpectidly went wrong and caused a lean condition. :nice: Well this would be good if the light was seperate. I think it may be on the gauge itself, but don't know for sure.

NightHawk756

03-11-2005, 09:25 AM

Not to start anything, I completely disagree with tunes changing. Once your tune is dialed in, its not going to change unless you change something on the car. That's why street tuning for several days or even a week is very important. Helps you cover all your bases when tuning.So your telling me that all these people that have tunes and have experienced lean conditions are just exagerating??

Yes, when you have a good tune and EVERYTHING is perfect, then yes you won't have problems. But everything WON'T always be perfect. FPR's will go out on you, you might have a problem with your MAF, a Fuel Pump may go out on you etc. etc. All these things directly affect your A/F and have caused problems for people during runs.

NightHawk756

03-11-2005, 09:27 AM

Yep, thats why I bought the AEM with the digital display, so I can watch it when I go full throttle. I saw the damn thing hit 13.3 the other day (first time WOT with the new tune) and I got off the throttle, but not soon enough..I fried 4 plugs (broken porclein) :fuss:

So I did like the SCT manual says and bought some copper plugs for tuning (NGK BR7EF's) for $1.59 a plug insted of the damn Denso's that were fried that cost $80 for the set :fuss:Yep, that's why I want it for that very reason. That sucks that it was Denso's when you did it though!! :fuss:

Italian LX

03-11-2005, 09:39 AM

This is why I said "quick" glance. I don't "constantly" watch anything while going down the track. It's impossible. When I was making runs in the coupe, I glanced at my oil pressure at least twice during the run. I want to be able to do this with the A/F. ;)
First of all, I'm going to have to emphasize the fact that if you have a good tune, you're A/F going down the track won't vary any different than it would in everyday driving. With that being said, the only reason you would want to keep tabs on it is in rare instances where you may lose fuel such as an injector dropping out or loss of fuel pressure (both unlikely, but they could happen). In either of these situation, just glancing at an A/F meter twice down the track won't help any; the problem could arise right after you look at it and before you look at it again, your pistons would be toast.

When I was making runs in the coupe, I glanced at my oil pressure at least twice during the run.
Maybe I'm ignorant, but I don't see the point in watching oil pressure during a short jaunt down the track. I know it is a vital part of motor survival, but the way I see it, if it goes out, so be it. There are too many other things to pay attention to (such as keeping the car straight and shifting) that I feel the unlikelyhood of oil pump failure is not a concern. Again, you're not putting your oil system under any more of a load than if you were on the street.

Italian LX

03-11-2005, 09:41 AM

Yep, thats why I bought the AEM with the digital display, so I can watch it when I go full throttle. I saw the damn thing hit 13.3 the other day (first time WOT with the new tune). . .
Who did the tune? :shrug:

Italian LX

03-11-2005, 09:44 AM

So your telling me that all these people that have tunes and have experienced lean conditions are just exagerating??
Who tuned these cars that are having lean conditions?

. . . you do realize that there is such thing as a 'bad tune' and there are many cars out there that are running around with them, right?

EZ SPEED

03-11-2005, 09:59 AM

Who did the tune? :shrug:

SCT base tune they sent me with the software. He stated this in the email:

"This file will require some work to be perfect, specifically the MAF
transfer function."

But I need to make changes first so that I can actually do a WOT run obviously. ;)

Its my fault that it happened, I am still learning.

tacbear

03-11-2005, 10:02 AM

Italian LX

03-11-2005, 10:09 AM

Its my fault that it happened, I am still learning.
That's very understandable; basically, your tune is not complete yet.

I asked the question to make a point because Brad was trying to use your example for his reasoning behind wanting an A/F meter to keep tabs on things.

Your situation is a perfect example of the main function of a wideband; which is to keep tabs on the mixture while tuning the car (not after the tune is complete).

QWKSNKE

03-11-2005, 10:22 AM

So your telling me that all these people that have tunes and have experienced lean conditions are just exagerating??

Yes, when you have a good tune and EVERYTHING is perfect, then yes you won't have problems. But everything WON'T always be perfect. FPR's will go out on you, you might have a problem with your MAF, a Fuel Pump may go out on you etc. etc. All these things directly affect your A/F and have caused problems for people during runs.

Like I said I wasn't trying to start an argument. I am not trying to deter you from buying a w/b O2 and I do not know anybody who has experienced a lean failure after their car was properly tuned. BUT I do not surf turbomustangs.com like you and Wall.

From MY experience it would be very beneficial if you were doing your own street tuning. But once a car is tuned, its tuned. Odds are if a MAF or FPR go out you will be on the rich side not lean. The only way it will be beneficial at the track is if it has a datalogger with it. You will not be able to watch it while driving a high hp 5-speed at the track. If your car was an auto then yes you could get a glance at it while going down the track like you did looking at your oil press in your coupe. Your power level will be the same as mine (should be more) and you cannot fathom (unless you have been in a high hp 5-speed) how hard your car is going to pull. Once you go past 9 or 10 psi of boost your car is going to pull like nothing you have ever seen. Ask Brian, when we were doing my street tune and I would wind out 3rd just to put a WOT in the datalog, it would pull very very hard.

QWKSNKE

03-11-2005, 10:26 AM

This is the kind of dialog I like! I haven't decided on a WBO2 to get yet or where to place the gauge. I am leaning toward the WB Commander mainly because it has a warning light and it comes highly recommended by some guys with real fast cars that race alot! I think for tuning a digital gauge is best, but for driving the analog WB Commander w/warning light is best--just my .02, I won't have a firebreathing 600+hp monster like you guys, I'll be lucky to break 370rwhp.

From what this thread has produced, if I was in the market for a w/b 02, I would buy the same thing Whit. Just because it has a warning light.

But I do not feel I need one. I could pay for 6 hrs tuning on the dyno w/ a wideband for the price of one to install on my car. Based off mine and Brian's last tuning experience that is about 5.5 more hours than I need.

NightHawk756

03-11-2005, 11:11 AM

With that being said, the only reason you would want to keep tabs on it is in rare instances where you may lose fuel such as an injector dropping out or loss of fuel pressure (both unlikely, but they could happen). In either of these situation, just glancing at an A/F meter twice down the track won't help any; the problem could arise right after you look at it and before you look at it again, your pistons would be toast.This is the very reason why I want this. Because just like you said, it could happen. A tune is relative to all parts working perfectly. I never said that this couldn't still happen even if I had a display. I just like the fact of knowing that with the display I have a better chance to catch something and let out.

Maybe I'm ignorant, but I don't see the point in watching oil pressure during a short jaunt down the track. I know it is a vital part of motor survival, but the way I see it, if it goes out, so be it. There are too many other things to pay attention to (such as keeping the car straight and shifting) that I feel the unlikelyhood of oil pump failure is not a concern. Again, you're not putting your oil system under any more of a load than if you were on the street.Well, for one, even running 11.60's, my car being an automatic was very easy to drive. Also, it was a carb car and there wasn't much to watch. So, I glanced at the oil pressure and if I saw it dipping then I could let off and shut down.

NightHawk756

03-11-2005, 11:15 AM

Who tuned these cars that are having lean conditions?

. . . you do realize that there is such thing as a 'bad tune' and there are many cars out there that are running around with them, right?Of course I realize this. These are people that had custom dyno tunes. It wasn't the tune that was bad, it was parts failures. I.E-injector losses, fuel pumps giving out etc.

NightHawk756

03-11-2005, 11:25 AM

I asked the question to make a point because Brad was trying to use your example for his reasoning behind wanting an A/F meter to keep tabs on things.

Your situation is a perfect example of the main function of a wideband; which is to keep tabs on the mixture while tuning the car (not after the tune is complete).Hmmm it's funny. I'm glad you know what I was "trying" to do even though I'm the one that replied.

Read his post. He said "Yep, thats why I bought the AEM with the digital display, so I can watch it when I go full throttle." That's why I said, " Yep, that's why I want it for that very reason."

NightHawk756

03-11-2005, 11:31 AM

From MY experience it would be very beneficial if you were doing your own street tuning. But once a car is tuned, its tuned. Odds are if a MAF or FPR go out you will be on the rich side not lean. The only way it will be beneficial at the track is if it has a datalogger with it. You will not be able to watch it while driving a high hp 5-speed at the track. If your car was an auto then yes you could get a glance at it while going down the track like you did looking at your oil press in your coupe. Your power level will be the same as mine (should be more) and you cannot fathom (unless you have been in a high hp 5-speed) how hard your car is going to pull. Once you go past 9 or 10 psi of boost your car is going to pull like nothing you have ever seen. Ask Brian, when we were doing my street tune and I would wind out 3rd just to put a WOT in the datalog, it would pull very very hard. Yes your right, I haven't driven a boosted 5-speed. And yes I agree and know that it will be much harder to drive. That's why I might actually get the WB commander with the warning light. I just haven't decided.

QWKSNKE

03-11-2005, 11:46 AM

Yes your right, I haven't driven a boosted 5-speed. And yes I agree and know that it will be much harder to drive. That's why I might actually get the WB commander with the warning light. I just haven't decided.

if you are dead set on getting one, that would be the one to get. :nice:

QWKSNKE

03-11-2005, 11:49 AM

Yes your right, I haven't driven a boosted 5-speed. And yes I agree and know that it will be much harder to drive. .

imagine the pull you get in first gear now happening in 4th after the new combo goes in. I would be willing to bet that in 3rd gear I can go from 60 mph to 100 mph in about 2 -2.5 seconds

NightHawk756

03-11-2005, 11:55 AM

imagine the pull you get in first gear now happening in 4th after the new combo goes in. I would be willing to bet that in 3rd gear I can go from 60 mph to 100 mph in about 2 -2.5 secondsSweet!! :metal:

NightHawk756

03-11-2005, 11:56 AM

if you are dead set on getting one, that would be the one to get. :nice:Yeah, I just don't want another big gauge in my car. That's why I was looking into the displays.

QWKSNKE

03-11-2005, 12:22 PM

2 & 1/16 gauge is to big? :think:

Any smaller and you won't be able to read it. What are you looking at?

EZ SPEED

03-11-2005, 12:29 PM

Your situation is a perfect example of the main function of a wideband; which is to keep tabs on the mixture while tuning the car (not after the tune is complete).

Right, but like Lee and I were just talking about, I am constantly changing my setup and I do pulley changes wereas Lee doesnt change out pulleys and such. So a WB is needed in my case.

But in Brads case with a Turbo upping the boost is even easier than my "quickdraw" pulley changes at the track ;)

I was planning on buying the FJO wideband, but the price (about $650) was a little much, and I realized the main reason I wanted it was for the digital display so I went with the AEM. The Wideband Commander is a great one also, but it has MORE than I need, why spend the extra $150 for stuff I already have (datalogging) and again, I wanted a digital display.

WOW ...I think this is about the most Technical discussion we have ever had on here. :banana2:

Italian LX

03-11-2005, 12:33 PM

This is the very reason why I want this. Because just like you said, it could happen. A tune is relative to all parts working perfectly. I never said that this couldn't still happen even if I had a display. I just like the fact of knowing that with the display I have a better chance to catch something and let out.
My argument isn't whether or not to get one, what I'm trying to emphasize is that if you're getting one for more than just tuning a car, then you need to get one that will keep you alerted of possible problems without having to consiously look at it and read it.

I'm just trying to help you out and make sure you get something that serves it's purpose correctly. :nice:

Italian LX

03-11-2005, 12:55 PM

Of course I realize this. These are people that had custom dyno tunes.
Since you mentioned dyno tunes, there is another issue I'd like to point out.

Typically, when people tune their cars, they take them straight to the dyno and do multiple WOT pulls. In between the pulls they adjust various parameters like timing, fuel pressure, fuel miltipliers, injector slopes, MAF transfers, etc. in order to get a good A/F ratio and the most power. When all is said and done, they leave the dyno and are comfortable that they have a safe tune.

There is a problem, however, if the tuner uses the wrong parameters in order to acheive this "perfect" tune. Certain things can be changed that will lead to a good A/F ratio on the dyno, but eventually change the tune due to the computer's adaptive strategies and long-term adjustments.

Take fuel pressure for instance; if a dyno pull shows an A/F a little on the lean side throughout the curve, someone may increase fuel pressure to compensate. This will work on the following pull (and probably all pulls made that day). The problem arises when the computer realizes that the A/F is now off from what it is trying to command. Over time (maybe 200 miles or so) it will change the long-term fuel trims to compensate and the A/F will be back to where it was before the fuel pressure was increased.

There are many other things parameters that have similar effects and can cause a good dyno tune to end up useless after a couple days of driving. My point is that just because a graph looks good on a dyno, doesn't mean it's going to stay that way.

My recommendation is to get a very good street tune first and get the MAF set up and everything worked out for part-throttle operation before even thinking about going to the dyno. Also, make sure you have driven the car a few hundred miles (without disconnecting the battery) before going to the dyno. If you find that you do need to make some major changes when you finally do your dyno session, then go ahead and make the changes and schedule another dyno session a week or so later to verify the new tune.

Sorry I got off topic, I just wanted to share some information that was somewhat relavent to the disussion.

NightHawk756

03-11-2005, 01:21 PM

2 & 1/16 gauge is to big? :think:

Any smaller and you won't be able to read it. What are you looking at?I don't mean in circumference. I mean in depth. Mounting options are limited to a-pillar pods(I don't like these), a clock pod(don't like these either), a steering column pod(possible) and a gauge bezel(which I have for my boost and fuel pressure gauges).The LCD displays are flat in construction and can be mounted anywhere. Specifically, where Darren has his mounted. That's where I would want mine.

NightHawk756

03-11-2005, 01:29 PM

QWKSNKE

03-11-2005, 01:55 PM

OK, and on the whole tuning point. Look at Dave for example, he had a custom tune so everything should have been alright right?? No, it wasn't, because due to other problems he got oil in his MAF. And what did that do?? He went lean and burned what, 5 pistons?? A tune is only as good as all the other factors that are related to it. That's my point. There are too many factors that determine your A/F besides the tune itself.

didn't realize you didn't like the a-pillar pods. As far as Dave's situation, I don't think having a gauge would have helped him. The damage would have been done by the time it was realized on the gauge.

But again, I don't believe anyone is trying to steer you away from buying one. Just realize while it is a useful tool, it is not a fail safe one. There are always going to be chances of something going wrong and killing the motor especially so when running power adders like you and I are. Its the nature of the beast. Hell I had my fuel solenoids fail twice in the years I ran nitrous.

By the way, you could always ditch the fuel pressure gauge and put your a/f there couldn't you. Move your fuel pressure to the fuel rail. Trust me, it kinda sucks making fuel adjustments and then walking back around the car to look inside the pass. compartment to view the gauge to see how much was adjusted.

NightHawk756

03-11-2005, 02:11 PM

didn't realize you didn't like the a-pillar pods. As far as Dave's situation, I don't think having a gauge would have helped him. The damage would have been done by the time it was realized on the gauge. I'm not wanting a gauge because it will keep anything from happening. As I said before, nothing is fail-safe. But having a gauge gives you more of a chance to see a problem. Just doesn't guarantee anything.

The reason I used Dave as an example is because of the comments about once it's tuned, it's tuned and the A/F won't change. It will change, because of numerous factors. The tune is only as good as the other related parts are.

By the way, you could always ditch the fuel pressure gauge and put your a/f there couldn't you. Move your fuel pressure to the fuel rail. Trust me, it kinda sucks making fuel adjustments and then walking back around the car to look inside the pass. compartment to view the gauge to see how much was adjusted.Yeah, I could do that. I need to make my mind up I guess.

93Cobra#2771

03-11-2005, 02:23 PM

No, it wasn't, because due to other problems he got oil in his MAF. And what did that do?? He went lean and burned what, 5 pistons?? A tune is only as good as all the other factors that are related to it.

I would consider that more of a mechanical failure than a "factor that determines your a/f". To me, that would be on the same level as a fuel pump dying, or even a bad vacuum leak.

Bad a/f can almost INSTANTLY cook a piston/blow a h/g, etc. It's one of those things that "if you see it, it's too late", IMHO. Heck, you have a better chance with a low oil pressure warning light than you do with a "lean a/f light", IMHO.

NightHawk756

03-11-2005, 02:38 PM

I would consider that more of a mechanical failure than a "factor that determines your a/f". To me, that would be on the same level as a fuel pump dying, or even a bad vacuum leak.

Bad a/f can almost INSTANTLY cook a piston/blow a h/g, etc. It's one of those things that "if you see it, it's too late", IMHO. Heck, you have a better chance with a low oil pressure warning light than you do with a "lean a/f light", IMHO.OK, I'm not a rocket scientist, but for him to go "lean" means his A/F changed. This because of the oil in the MAF. Which, his tune, which was done by a respected tuner, did him absolutely no good then.

93Cobra#2771

03-11-2005, 02:44 PM

QWKSNKE

03-11-2005, 02:51 PM

Now, if you can SET the a/f that it lights up (for example, 13.1 on a power adder car), then you might have a chance to let off before things get freaky...

That would be great if you can do that. That in it self would make a wideband setup more useful than it already is. Say you tune your power adder car to a 11.5:1 have a warning light come on at 12.5:1 would rock. I would consider that a fail safe setup!

Brad, design something like that and become a billionaire :D.

NightHawk756

03-11-2005, 02:52 PM

Nor would a non tuned EEC have made any difference. The point I'm trying to make is that a wideband is more of a tuning aid than it is a warning device. Like Lee said, if you see the lean a/f, it is too late.

Now, if you can SET the a/f that it lights up (for example, 13.1 on a power adder car), then you might have a chance to let off before things get freaky...I think your missing the point. The reason I posted the example of Dave's car was because on this thread the comment was made more than once that once you have a good tune the A/F won't change. That's not true. These "mechanical" failures directly affect the A/F. So even if you have the best tune money can buy, these things will still change the A/F so your not OK with a good tune. That example wasn't posted for anything but for those statements. Not for a reason to get a gauge.

Look at Eric for example. The gauge helped him while tuning and he was able to let out. Without the gauge, if he wanted to datalog and come back to check, he might could have hurt it worse because he wouldn't have known to let out.

tacbear

03-11-2005, 02:55 PM

Now, if you can SET the a/f that it lights up (for example, 13.1 on a power adder car), then you might have a chance to let off before things get freaky...

That's the reason I'm getting the WB Commander!!!!! It has a user programable warning light!! :metal:
http://www.widebandcommander.com/

QWKSNKE

03-11-2005, 03:04 PM

I think your missing the point. The reason I posted the example of Dave's car was because on this thread the comment was made more than once that once you have a good tune the A/F won't change. That's not true. These "mechanical" failures directly affect the A/F. So even if you have the best tune money can buy, these things will still change the A/F so your not OK with a good tune. That example wasn't posted for anything but for those statements. Not for a reason to get a gauge.

:nice:

Look at Eric for example. The gauge helped him while tuning and he was able to let out. Without the gauge, if he wanted to datalog and come back to check, he might could have hurt it worse because he wouldn't have known to let out.

Actually he wouldn't have (and this is something you will notice when you have your new combo setup). Regardless of having gauge or not you will notice when the car is lean because of the stumble (more power you make, the more noticeable it is) Its hard to explain by typing but you will feel it when the slightest detonation begins and it takes out your spark plugs.

Like was mentioned above this has turned out to be a great thread in here. :nice:

Italian LX

03-11-2005, 03:10 PM

. . .the comment was made more than once that once you have a good tune the A/F won't change. That's not true. These "mechanical" failures . . .
:doh:
When we said the A/F won't change with a good tune, we were excluding any mechanical failures. (I wouldn't have thought we would have to explain that stipulation.)

The reason we made the comment is because you were making it sound like the A/F could change at any given time without a mechanical failure. If this is not what you were implying then forgive me; I must have misunderstood.

Look at Eric for example. The gauge helped him while tuning and he was able to let out. Without the gauge, if he wanted to datalog and come back to check, he might could have hurt it worse because he wouldn't have known to let out.
Again, Eric is still in the process of tuning; therefore, your comment above is backing up what we have been saying: An A/F meter is mainly used for a tuning device -- not a warning device."

QWKSNKE

03-11-2005, 03:17 PM

An A/F meter is mainly used for a tuning device -- not a warning device."

yeah but if the wideband commander can do what tacbear says, it could be a warning device and that would be freaking cool

NightHawk756

03-11-2005, 03:25 PM

Actually he wouldn't have (and this is something you will notice when you have your new combo setup). Regardless of having gauge or not you will notice when the car is lean because of the stumble (more power you make, the more noticeable it is) Its hard to explain by typing but you will feel it when the slightest detonation begins and it takes out your spark plugs.
I took it that he didn't feel it. Because he said he saw a 13 A/F and let out. Sorry, my mistake. :shrug:

tacbear

03-11-2005, 03:25 PM

yeah but if the wideband commander can do what tacbear says, it could be a warning device and that would be freaking cool

This "in-vehicle" dash mount electric AFR gauge also has a built-in warning light. Choose between the Black Face/Silver Bezel and White Face/Black Bezel gauges.

ttp://www.widebandcommander.com/

NightHawk756

03-11-2005, 03:34 PM

The reason we made the comment is because you were making it sound like the A/F could change at any given time without a mechanical failure. If this is not what you were implying then forgive me; I must have misunderstood.Nope, this is the very reason I wanted a gauge. Hopefully with it, if there starts to be a problem somewhere with an injector or MAF then I should see a difference. I thought I could also use the gauge for down the track, but after the points ya'll made about being under boost,that might not be possible.

Again, Eric is still in the process of tuning; therefore, your comment above is backing up what we have been saying: An A/F meter is mainly used for a tuning device -- not a warning device." But, with a warning light like with the commander it could be!! :poke:

Italian LX

03-11-2005, 05:11 PM

yeah but if the wideband commander can do what tacbear says, it could be a warning device and that would be freaking cool
But, with a warning light like with the commander it could be!! :poke:
That's why I said it's mainly used as a tuning device. ;)

TheJeanyus

03-11-2005, 06:09 PM

:joystick:

Wicked

03-11-2005, 06:13 PM

Speaking of widebands, I'm selling NTK Wideband Sensors(sensor only) for $50/per. They are normally $150 or so. PM for details.

:jester:

86GT

03-20-2005, 07:02 PM

I have a PLX 250 with the 2 1/16" white face guage. I have the guage mounted in the A-pilar and the controller behind the dash.

It is true, if you want to datalog the value you will have to by a $25 dataQ or tap into the EVP sensor on the EGR if you are using the Tweecer.

93Cobra#2771

03-21-2005, 06:29 AM

:wave:
Welcome to the board, Clint!

86GT

03-21-2005, 10:32 AM

:wave:
Welcome to the board, Clint!

Thanks, It time to start learning more.

I am now starting to look into supper chargers. My head is spinning

86GT

03-26-2005, 07:44 PM

I uploaded a few pictures to the virtual garage to show where I located the WB bungs

Italian LX

03-31-2005, 03:05 PM

You might want to double check w/ the zeitronix, yoshki did have to cut into a few ecu wires.
If he is using the datalogging, then he would need to splice into things like tach signal, TPS, etc. If you use it with a seperate datalogging system (like the TwEECer), then there are no splices needed to the factory harness.

Italian LX

03-31-2005, 04:25 PM

Something interesting I found in my research...

Both Zeitronix and PLX give graphs of their wideband outputs and I would have to say that the PLX wins in that department. The PLX "curve" is practically linear and it uses the entire 0-5v scale. I would assume this would make the resolution of the PLX WB more superior.

Zeitronix:
http://www.zeitronix.com/Products/zt2/V_AFR.jpg

PLX:
http://www.plxdevices.com/M-Series-Controllers/WidebandOutputGraph.jpg