Brake Cooling - On the verge of Fabrication

[Sendero]

I have to say I am pretty displeased with the current brake cooling options out there. Sure there are many "homebrewed" setups out there that will blow ducted air onto the rotor, but I want something a little more balanced. From what I've learned you run the risk of unevenly cooling the rotor if you just simply blow air "at" the rotor, warpage will ensue.

Theory:
The word from road racers / engineers is that a rotor needs to be cooled evenly on both the inside and outside face. In order to do this they recommend introducing air close to the rotors center (just like the homebrews), but forcing the air to escape outward through the vanes. This will ensure both sides of the rotor cool equally and create airflow to the pads / calipers.

Design: (Taken from bits and pieces I have seen around the net)
Some type of backing plate that is cut just a fraction under the ID of the rotors interior face in order to reduce the amount of air escape area. Create some sort of barrier on the outboard side of the backing plate to help create a pressure area, basically a raised piece between the backing plate and the hub face. Again, its there to reduce the air escape area. (My thoughs are with the car moving at speed and forcing air down the brake ducts, that the air will become slightly pressurized inside the cooling device and be forced outward through the vanes)

Now, the SN95 brake setup with the ABS tone ring creates a fundemental problem, how to introduce the air into the cooling device. I have seen some use a 2" Mandel bent tubing that is "notched" to clear the LCA/Spindle nut at full lock (full jounce). But I am wondering if I could just attach the brake ductwork directly to the cooling device and zip-tie it out of the way. Then place some type of armour to keep the LCA/Spindle nut form tearing it up. But I still have to deal with the ABS tone ring because I want a minimum of a 2" inlet to maximize the airflow.

Somebody help me fill in the gaps, please? :shrug:

Materials:

Well, you definately don't want to increase weight at the wheels. So I though about using some thick Aluminum plate. Looking at prices, I'd better be sure about my design or it would be an expensive prototye. Plus it would have to be TIG welded, while I can TIG its not very pretty.

I also considered fiberglass, but I don't know if it would withstand the oven temperatures. What about Carbon Fiber? Do you know anyone that could form it for me?

What do you guys think? :think:

[AngelEyes]

Damn that is a lot of typing.

[Craig K.]

Well I was just taking a digi pic of my set up, then my batteries went dead, so perhaps tomorrow night I'll post pics.

Don't laugh at my set up, it works!
I use the air intake tube from a S10 V-6 I got two of these from a bone yard for a couple dollars. I then route 3 inch brake ducting to this and duct tape/zip tie them together. Then I route the front of the tube to a 3" napda duct which is mounted in the middle of my front bumbper where the front turn signal use to be.
The spindle section I have notch so the front of the duct goes around it, and the duct is just zip ties on (good zip ties are a must)

This set up has survived close to 2000 racing miles, plus 1000 miles on the street.

Anrother possible option is to cut a 2" hole into your dust shield (backing plate) and weld in a piece of 2" pipe, then route tubing from that up front. I have several friends that ran this set type of set up and never had problems.

A third option is to get a set of the 2kR ducts.

If you do make your own, make it out of card board first, it is a lot easier to work with for a first proto-type.

[QWKSNKE]

You do realize this is something that would only be necessary in repeated high speed braking. Not worth the trouble on a street car that already has CD/SL rotors

[Sendero]

A third option is to get a set of the 2kR ducts.


Do you know where I could price some? I've tried looking for them but keep coming up empty. I wonder if Ford has them in the parts bin?


If you do make your own, make it out of card board first, it is a lot easier to work with for a first proto-type.

Good idear! :banana:

[TheJeanyus]

You do realize this is something that would only be necessary in repeated high speed braking. Not worth the trouble on a street car that already has CD/SL rotors
That's what I was thinking - I would imagine the CD/SL Baerclaws do just fine on a street car without any additional cooling. :shrug:

[Sendero]

You do realize this is something that would only be necessary in repeated high speed braking. Not worth the trouble on a street car that already has CD/SL rotors

Ehh, I wrestled with this though too. But I have a design class coming up in the summer semester that I have to prototype something (that doesn't already have a patent). Im thinking of using this as my project.

Then, if the car ever comes to its full evolution and I get my wish, you guys will see me on ESPN. (Yeah right :rolleyes: )

That's what I was thinking - I would imagine the CD/SL Baerclaws do just fine on a street car without any additional cooling. :shrug:

Do you not remember me telling you about how hot my brakes were on the "night-run"? I do need cooling ducts, my car is a pig. (Judging by the cracks in your rotors, they wouldn't hurt you either)

[TheJeanyus]

Ehh, I wrestled with this though too. But I have a design class coming up in the summer semester that I have to prototype something (that doesn't already have a patent). Im thinking of using this as my project.

Then, if the car ever comes to its full evolution and I get my wish, you guys will see me on ESPN. (Yeah right :rolleyes: )
Man why can't we have classes like that?

[Craig K.]

Try calling Ford SVT direct, or pehaps someone like Roush, Steeda or Saleen, they all have team cars, and I am sure have extra sets fabed up.

You could also check with the circle track guys, however their stuff will not be specific and will need fab work.

When I get some free time, I will also look around and see if I can find some for you.

As I recall the ones for the Y2KR's were carbon fiber, and were going for around $200 a set or so about 5 years ago when they were new.

[tacbear]

:popcorn:

[Craig K.]

Man why can't we have classes like that?

During my classes I was given the chance to rebuild my engine, trans, rear end, suspension and brake system, all for credit towards my BS degree :banana:

[Sendero]

Man why can't we have classes like that?

Because you go to a medical school. :jester:


As I recall the ones for the Y2KR's were carbon fiber, and were going for around $200 a set or so about 5 years ago when they were new.


Now thats not too bad. They aren't the ones that "Mirage Motorsports" were selling years back, are they?

[TheJeanyus]

I believe the '00 R brake cooling equipment was really expensive and wasn't all that elborate. Seems like I remembe a discussion on the Mafia board where someone said they could make the same thing for like $30 and it costs $250 to buy the R kit.

[Craig K.]

No brake duct is very elaborate, it is a simple duct that fits around the spindle and guides air into the center of the rotor.

The nice thing about the 00r's is that it was carbon fiber, and a bolt on piece.

Real nice ducts have fan that blow air into the tubes, and water spayers also.

[QWKSNKE]

Do you not remember me telling you about how hot my brakes were on the "night-run"? I do need cooling ducts, my car is a pig. (Judging by the cracks in your rotors, they wouldn't hurt you either)


A) you were using your brakes to much

B) How do you know they were to hot. Did you see them glow?


That brake system is designed to perform when hot. If you drive Brian's or my car with the Baer equipped pads, you will see that they do not brake that well until hot and when they hit premium temperature, those mothers really stop.

[Sendero]

Real nice ducts have fan that blow air into the tubes, and water spayers also.

Yeah, when I first saw "water sprayers" I had the vision of a garden hose type stream. My thoughts were "holy crap that would cause rotor warpage!" But its just a mist which is quickly evaporated.

[QWKSNKE]

also...


If it is for school.....go for it :nice:

[TheJeanyus]

Do you not remember me telling you about how hot my brakes were on the "night-run"? I do need cooling ducts, my car is a pig. (Judging by the cracks in your rotors, they wouldn't hurt you either)
I'll have my brakes taken care of by the next Dragon Run. :yup:

[Wicked]

I believe the '00 R brake cooling equipment was really expensive and wasn't all that elborate. Seems like I remembe a discussion on the Mafia board where someone said they could make the same thing for like $30 and it costs $250 to buy the R kit.

I agree, but Nathan would rather buy something for $250 then make it for $30.

:poke:

I do remember them showing the R system and it looking...uh....Home Depot-ish.

[TheJeanyus]

Yeah, when I first saw "water sprayers" I had the vision of a garden hose type stream. My thoughts were "holy crap that would cause rotor warpage!" But its just a mist which is quickly evaporated.
:yup: A stream of water would get all over the tires, which would be a really bad idea. A mist will supply water to evaporate without collecting (dripping), which absorbs heat energy from the brake rotor.

[Sendero]

A) you were using your brakes to much

B) How do you know they were to hot. Did you see them glow?


That brake system is designed to perform when hot. If you drive Brian's or my car with the Baer equipped pads, you will see that they do not brake that well until hot and when they hit premium temperature, those mothers really stop.

True and mine don't stop worth a damn until they are hot. But, and a long but, I didn't have many problems with fade until I noticed an extended session of stomping on the pedal. Like our jaunt throught the Dragon and Brians/Josephs/My blast down the Skyway. They do very well for a short period of time before the fade begins. I weigh more than the foxes so that doesn't help either. I am hoping the cooling ducts will combat most of this while keeping me within optimal range.

[Sendero]

I agree, but Nathan would rather buy something for $250 then make it for $30.



All in the name of science! :doh:

[TheJeanyus]

I weigh more than the foxes so that doesn't help either.
You think your car is heavy? Strap on a blower, intercooler, and IRS.

[Scothew]

Plus dont the 03's have an iron block?

Nathan, I say go for it with your design. Hell it cant hurt anything :) Plus if you make it good enough, there may be a chance for resale afterwards leading into some extra cash for the cobra fund :)

[96GTS]

Plus dont the 03's have an iron block?
:yup:

Here's the R ducts
http://www.capa.com.au/pics/ford_power_parts_shm_brakecooling.jpg

http://www.capa.com.au/pics/ford_power_parts_shm_brakecooling2.jpg

[Sendero]

:yup:

Here's the R ducts
http://www.capa.com.au/pics/ford_power_parts_shm_brakecooling.jpg

http://www.capa.com.au/pics/ford_power_parts_shm_brakecooling2.jpg

Hey, thats the Sean Hyland stuff that costs about $400! :hmm: Back to the drawing board.

[96GTS]

Hey, thats the Sean Hyland stuff that costs about $400! :hmm: Back to the drawing board.
bdk-cf || Carbon Fiber Brake Duct Kits || US$244.95
:shrug:

[svopaul]

Nathan, please take this as constructive criticism and nothing more as I am trying to understand why/how your rotors developed cracks...;).

I am wondering about your driving style when it comes to braking...if you brake early you are going to get your brakes hot and overheat them causing excess heat and/or shuddering of the pads. Nobody performs late braking practices as a natural instinct and I suspect you don't either. I had to teach myself late braking as does everyone else and I am sure Craig did the same when he first started his performance driving. It is a natural instinct to brake far before you need to when coming to a corner/curve.....this leads to warpage, cracking, fade, etc from excessive heat. You would be shocked to learn how late you can brake.

This is the only conclusion I can come to with your problem....if you need brake cooling ducts on the street then you must be braking too early. On track they are needed at places like TGPR but not on an autocross course.

Since it's for school by all means do it since you can have fun doing it and get yourself something useful.....

But....

...I think the problem lies elsewhere.

[Craig K.]

Nobody performs late braking practices as a natural instinct and I suspect you don't either. I had to teach myself late braking as does everyone else and I am sure Craig did the same when he first started his performance driving. It is a natural instinct to brake far before you need to when coming to a corner/curve.....this leads to warpage, cracking, fade, etc from excessive heat. You would be shocked to learn how late you can brake.

This is the only conclusion I can come to with your problem....if you need brake cooling ducts on the street then you must be braking too early. On track they are needed at places like TGPR but not on an autocross course.


Like Paul said, when you first start to really drive hard, you'll always brake early, at tracks, as you make laps, you go deeper and deeper, until you loose it, then back off a hair. As you make laps, you'll start to pick out cracks in the pavement, or a tree branch or something to use as you brake markers. Yes you will actually look at cracks in the road at 120 MPH to deciede when to brake.

I also agree with Paul that doing an Auto X you'll most likely will never need brake coolers.

But I think that you should definatly do this as a school project, where else can you earn credit and get something for your car.

P.S. I didn't forget about posting some pic's last night, I just ran out of time.

[Sendero]

Ok, let me clear a couple of things up:

The ONLY time that I have experienced measureable fade was while we were at the Dragon. (Mostly on the skyway) This fade was induced by me purposely because I wanted to know how much they would take. I do not get fade in everyday driving.

The crack turned out ot be a rock ding that just happened to be right next to a crossdrilled hole. I looked like the beginnings of a stress crack, but I never got the wheels off to look at it closely. False alarm, everything is ok.

As far as my driving style... I am brake heavy and I know that. Thats just how I learned to drive in Karts and I'm doing it in the car. I've been working on that bad habit because it will put in into a spin quick, but all my suspension mods are helping the seperation process. But see my first comment on the fade issue.

As for the validity of brake cooling ducts on my car or not, Im doing this as a process of learning. I don't learn by reading books, I learn by turning wrenches and breaking things. Will the car every see a 200mph stop coming down the back stretch of Talladega Speedway, probably not. But will like the added benefit of cooling ducts and the knowledge of how to make them work on my cup car. :) :jester:

[Craig K.]

Nathan,
Just as a side note, I should show you one of my "back up" rotors for the '85, lots of heat cracks, but you'll find those on almost any full road race car.

[QWKSNKE]

Nathan look what i received from kenny brown today in a email

A Kenny Brown Exclusive!
CSR Front Brake Cooling Ducts
For 1999-2004 Mustangs and Cobras
The all new Front Brake Cooling Duct Kit features the best and most
functional design available for the Mustang and Cobra. Designed to fit
the OEM 13” Cobra front brake rotor and caliper, the easy-to-install
front cooling duct replaces the OEM dust shield. The duct inlet is
smartly placed in the correct location to push air through the rotor
veins for maximum brake cooling and efficiency.
· Quick and Easy Bolt-On
· Reduces Brake Temperatures
· Reduces Brake Fade
· Extends Pad and Rotor Life
· Replaces OEM Dust Shield
· A Must For Open-Track
Part #: KBP-71200
Application: ’99-‘04 Cobra

As soon as I can copy the pic off the adobe file. I'll post it

[Sendero]

Nathan look what i received from kenny brown today in a email



As soon as I can copy the pic off the adobe file. I'll post it


Oh Oh Oh oh Oh OH.... just send me the damn PDF.

[QWKSNKE]

can't it has some classified info on it :D

[Scothew]

so 99-04 eh??? any reason it wont fit 96-98 cobra brakes

[Italian LX]

Nathan look what i received from kenny brown today in a email



As soon as I can copy the pic off the adobe file. I'll post it

http://www.deepstageperformance.com/images/kb-brakeducts-2.jpg


http://www.deepstageperformance.com/images/kb-brakeducts-1.jpg

[Sendero]

so 99-04 eh??? any reason it wont fit 96-98 cobra brakes


I believe the spindles are all the same from 96 on. The only reason they say 99+ is because the front Cobra bumper covers on those cars have provisions for the cooling ducts.


But it does look cool. I'd like to get a closer look.

I'm thinking I may have to re-think my school project.

You guys can PM me my retail + nathan tax + sales tax price anytime you please. :D

[94five0]

i would love to learn all the corner carving tactics, it seems so much more involved than pointing a car down a stretch of road an lettin it go..turns are what really intrest me..the actual of physics. modulation of brake, throttle, an engine rpm in comparison to the driving line of the car.. I know theres a specific path your suposed to take, its jus training myself to recognize that path I have a problem with..

eh Nathan if you don't do the brake mods for a project, i got 3 words for ya..moon walker rims :D

[Craig K.]

Dang that looks like a nice and easy kit.

Plus the orange tubing is the high temp version and is also smoothed on the inside for improved flow.