H/C/I Advice

[SkurdalenFox]

This spring I intend to do an H/C/I swap and freshen up the ol’ 5.0 a bit. I want to get everything together and have a definite plan before I yank the engine, so I’m starting early.

Here are the parts to be added.

GT-40 Heads – ported, upgraded springs and valves.*
Explorer Intake – ported lower*
Cam – I haven’t decided which yet.
Roller Rockers
Timing chain and gear set
New pushrods and lifters.
New normal volume oil pump & HD oil pump driveshaft*
Windage tray
Valve covers
New front seal
Pioneer harmonic damper*
Stewart Stage 1 water pump*
Transmission front seal
Plus all the various gaskets and bolts for the above parts.

Now for the questions,

So, what am I missing? What should I do and what should I not do? Please keep in mind that I want to stay out of the machine shop.

Should I do anything with the main bearings? One book I have mentions that I should replace the main beings with .001” oversize bearings outright. It seems like I should measure the clearance before I just slap in some new bearings. Further, I recently had an oil analysis done. HERE (http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k30/skurdalen/Oil.jpg)The motor is a little high on Aluminum and Iron, but Copper and Lead are below average. It seems like I shouldn’t need to put in new main bearings. Please advise.

Should I go with head bolts or studs? I’ve read tons of contradictory information on this. I have no plans super/turbo charge or for Nitrous Oxide.

*s mark the parts I already have. If you have any advice about the other items, I'm all ears.

Any advice will be warmly greeted and very much appreciated.

[coupe]

If you get the crank lightly re-polished and checked for straightness and runout...the .001 oversize bearings might be okay... But if everything looks good and measures out fine, sticking it all back together standard will work wonderfully. If it's down that far, don't re-use the bearings.
Measure twice, assemble once. :nice:

Use head-studs. It will put less stress on the threads in the block and holds clamp better than a bolt in general.

Cams: I'm a fan of the Trick FLow stage1 . The Crane "Powermax" line is nice too. IF you must get a Ford cam, put in the B303 or F-303. And either of those works surprisingly well with 1.7 rockers.

[SkurdalenFox]

What do you think would suit my needs better, this one-
http://www.cranecams.com/?show=browseParts&lvl=2&prt=5&Vehicle_Type=Auto&Cylinders=8&Engine_Make=FORD-MERCURY&Year=1993&Engine_Size=302%20C.I.&partNumber=444221&partType=camshaft

Or,

http://www.cranecams.com/?show=browseParts&lvl=2&prt=5&Vehicle_Type=Auto&Cylinders=8&Engine_Make=FORD-MERCURY&Year=1993&Engine_Size=302%20C.I.&partNumber=444225&partType=camshaft

3.08 gears for now, probably going to move up to 3.55 if I'm still not happy post H/C/I swap.
25inch tires, still working on the trans, but as of this moment it's an AOD with the stock converter, that shifts at ~5300.

I don't have a ton of info on port job on the heads other than they were ported to be consistent with the Cobra intake, and flow best from 3000 to 5000.

The P.O. of these heads ran an Cobra intake 1.6 rockers and B cam, and with a 10:1 compression ratio made 332rwhp.

As to the camshaft selection. What I'd like to improve is the gutless 2500ish RPM to shift area when getting up to freeway speed, and the 3rd gear, 2500ish and up passing performance.

[Italian LX]

Use head-studs. It will put less stress on the threads in the block and holds clamp better than a bolt in general.
:agree:

The only drawbacks of using studs is they cost a little more and sometimes it makes removing the heads while the motor is in the car a bit more difficult.

However, another plus side is that when you do remove the heads, you won't have a big coolant mess when you remove the lower fasteners. :D

[coupe]

What I'd like to improve is the gutless 2500ish RPM to shift area when getting up to freeway speed, and the 3rd gear, 2500ish and up passing performance.

I tell you what...Ths is just as much a problem with your AOD and converter than the cam. I'd run a 3.73 gear at least (prefer a 4.10 with that steep .66 overdrive). Then stick in a 2500-2800 stall converter and the Bauman shift-kit or something like that. The car will wake up like you won't believe.

I like the first cam (444221) better because it's not using 1.7 RR's to get the lift. The lift rates at the valve will be smoother like this and I think it will make more torque in the midrange. It sounds like a great pick.

Get a stall, shiftkit, and gears first. You may be totally satisfied afterthat.

[QWKSNKE]

Get a stall, shiftkit, and gears first. You may be totally satisfied afterthat.


I agree. We did 3.73's and a Baumann shift kit in 89 Hoss's fox GT he had in spring of last year and made a very good improvement in his car. He was very pleased with it.

I also agree with doing 3.73's at a bare minimum in a AOD equipped car

[1Quik85GT]

If you tear the engine, down, you can use the bearings again. I have done that in my stang and my race car before. If the bearings look really good, use 'em. but as soon as you pull the pistons out the rings will lose there tension. I would definetly use new pistons, and when you do that, make sure you have the block honed. 3.73 gears with an auto would be a good idea. Studs are good, but most street goin racers dont use them because we are changing heads while the engine is in the car. If you use a good gasket, make sure the head and block are surfaced flat, and torque the heads to the right sequence, it will be just as good as a stud. Our Super stocker doesnt use studs, and it has tons of compression. No studs, no o-rings either.

[SkurdalenFox]

Thanks for all the advice guys. I really appreciate it.

The converter, shift kit and gears suggestion is very helpful. Initially, I had planned to replace the gears and add a shift kit this spring. However, the highly deteriorated front cover gasket is hemorrhaging about a quart of coolant every 12 hours or 40 miles, and that takes precedence. So, while I’ve got the damn thing apart, I thought I’d do the H/C/I swap. But, while I’ve got the engine out, I suppose I should also change the converter- http://www.streetstangs.net/showthread.php?t=8324

[SkurdalenFox]

My AOD’s flexplate teeth are a bit chewed up from a low quality starter motor that was spinning it for a little while. The starter died quickly and was replaced with a Ford unit that has worked well. So anyhow, I plan to replace the flexplate with a used AOD/50oz flexplate. This won’t require a balance will it?

[coupe]

Nope.

[SkurdalenFox]

I yanked out the engine, and have got it torn down to the short block.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k30/skurdalen/HCI19Apr2007028.jpg

How do the cylinder walls looks?
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k30/skurdalen/HCI19Apr2007021.jpg
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k30/skurdalen/HCI19Apr2007020.jpg

The cross hatching is still pronounced, the ridge at the top of the cylinder is very, very small, - added acurate measurement - measured at .002" difference between the ridge and the bore directly beneath the ridge. That measurement is consistent among the eight cylinders . As can be seen, at the top of each cylinder there is a slight yellowness to the walls, and there is some carbon buildup. I’m very tempted to not even bother to mess with the bottom end or pistons & cylinders at all… foolish idea?

Is this bend stock?
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k30/skurdalen/HCI19Apr2007027.jpg


.314 of deflection. I plan on putting in a new timing set, but is that amount bad for 100k or pretty typical?
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k30/skurdalen/HCI19Apr2007025.jpg


I’m going to put in a new cam; is there any reason not to reuse my roller lifters? Should I keep them in their previous bores or does not it really matter?

[coupe]

Everything looks normal...except the oil really needed to be changed a little more frequently (especially the last time). The cross-hatch is not in focus, but is probably okay with 100k miles. Those motors can still look excellent with over 200k miles. Even 300k miles is not unheard of around here. :D

Put in a new timing set...get one of the nice rollmasters or something with "true roller" chain. You can reuse the lifters if they're not caked with carbon or anything. And the lifter bores all start out the same, as do the lifter diameters, so they should all be fine to use wherever. It wouldn't hurt to keep them in the same bores though.

If you plan on something serious with a pretty rowdy cam, spend the extra $120 and get a set of new lifters. Nice to have in there with new cam and pushrods.

[QWKSNKE]

Looks normal to me. What year motor is it? What are your future plans? That can play a part on what you should do now

[SkurdalenFox]

Everything looks normal...except the oil really needed to be changed a little more frequently (especially the last time).


Funny you should say that. I'm usually religious about 3k intervals, but I pushed it to ~5k because I kept thinking - tomorrow's the day I'm going to pull the motor...


You can reuse the lifters if they're not caked with carbon or anything.


They look pretty good. Would it be ill advised to drop them in my ultra-sonic cleaner with some Simple Green?

Looks normal to me. What year motor is it? What are your future plans? That can play a part on what you should do now

'93. I just want to do the H/C/I swap as mentioned earlier. I'm starting law school in the fall, so provided it lasts for three years, I'll be fine with that.

That it's a 93 reminds me of another question. Should I clean the carbon off the top of the pistons? If so, what is the recommended method and material?

[QWKSNKE]

That it's a 93 reminds me of another question. Should I clean the carbon off the top of the pistons? If so, what is the recommended method and material?

Best thing that I have used (per Edgar's advice) is letting them soak in oil (fresh) overnight. You can just pour in the cylinders if you are not going to remove the pistons.

[SkurdalenFox]

post oil soak and a nylon brushing,
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k30/skurdalen/HCI20Apr2007003.jpg

How does that look?

There is still a little and intermittent band of carbon goo above the furtherest travel of the top piston ring. About a third of it dissolved in the oil soak. I apprehensive about using a brush or anything on the cylinder wall. What can I use to remove that?

[QWKSNKE]

Looks good to me.

You could try using a mild scotch brite pad (red in color)

[SkurdalenFox]

Anyone have any tips for removing the front seal from the front cover that won't wreck the front cover? The book I have says to lightly tap around the edge with a chisel and hammer. That's not working, and I keep spying the sledge out of the corner of my eye...

[QWKSNKE]

Hammer and chisel or flat head screw driver should work. Are you hitting in from the backside of the cover?

[SkurdalenFox]

Hammer and chisel or flat head screw driver should work. Are you hitting in from the backside of the cover?

LOL! Yeah, I'm hitting it in the right direction!

[QWKSNKE]

Just making sure Jim :D

[TheJeanyus]

Are you hitting in from the backside...

:dirty:

[Italian LX]

Anyone have any tips for removing the front seal from the front cover that won't wreck the front cover? The book I have says to lightly tap around the edge with a chisel and hammer. That's not working, and I keep spying the sledge out of the corner of my eye...
Get a socket that is just slightly smaller than the opening in the cover. Supoort the cover as evenly as possible around the seal area (but not the seal itself) and whack away. It will probably take a bit to get it loose, but once it moves, it should come out pretty easily.

[SkurdalenFox]

Thanks guys. I got it out, but I wasn't so comfortable with how hard I had to hit.

Anyhow, tomorrow I'm going to pickup some taps to clean threads in the block . 7/16"-14 is the thread size for the heads, ya? 5/16"-18 for the front cover and intake stuff?

[SkurdalenFox]

I have yet another question. I wonder if it is worth it to get an adjustable timing set so that I can set up the cam in the proper position. Someone I know, and whom I trust recommends the adjustable set, and I've been searching around a bit for others’ opinions, which largely seem to be in favor of adjustability. Example,
http://corner-carvers.com/forums/showpost.php?p=531169&postcount=11

Specifics of the engine combo can be seen in post #1 of this thread,
http://www.streetstangs.net/showpost.php?p=107764&postcount=1

and I plan on going with this cam http://www.cranecams.com/?show=browseParts&lvl=2&prt=5&Vehicle_Type=Auto&Cylinders=8&Engine_Make=FORD-MERCURY&Year=1993&Engine_Size=302%20C.I.&partNumber=444221&partType=camshaft

plus a new torque converter/shift kit et cetera.

Basically, what sort of power output differential will be likely between a properly degreed cam and one that suffers from the nominal rate of error?

[SkurdalenFox]

Well, I decided to go with the fancy Cloyes Hex-A-Just adjustable timing set.

It uses an eccentric that rotates the sprocket on the camshaft. It requires an extra long dowel pin; a fact I didn't realize until AFTER I had put the too short pin in the cam.

Left for advance, right for retard.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k30/skurdalen/HCI26Apr2007018.jpg

I lined up the marks, like one would do with an ordinary timing set, and this is what I got at .050, intake open

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k30/skurdalen/HCI26Apr2007016.jpg

Cam card says intake open @ .050 should be at 1 degree BTDC.

adjust, adjust, adjust...

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k30/skurdalen/HCI26Apr2007020.jpg

Everything is dead on to the specs on the card. I know the wheels looks off the last picture. I re-centered it, and all is good... I'm very happy with the results, but if I have to find TDC one more time...

[QWKSNKE]

EDIT n/m...

[coupe]

Now, you did have a dial indicator on the lifter making sure that it was at .050 lift at the 1º BTC sepcified on the card, right?

Glad to see someone actually "degreeing in" a cam. It does make a difference. :yup:

[SkurdalenFox]

Glad to see someone actually "degreeing in" a cam. It does make a difference. :yup:


That's what they say. I wish I could get some real numbers on that though. This particular set was off by six degrees. Is that typical? I suppose I could have fixed that to within two degrees of correct with a standard multi-key way timing set. What is two or three degrees worth? Did I just pay $50 for 3 horsepower at 5900RPM?

If nothing else, I like learning stuff. So it was worth the money and time.

[coupe]

Well, that many degrees seems way off to me when they certainly must expect 90% of people to install it "dot-to-dot." That's why I wondered if your dial-indicator was giving you a true .050"

Please go over it one more time. :( Sorry. Also compare intake to exhaust, to see if the LSA and centerlines are as stated.

[SkurdalenFox]

Well, that many degrees seems way off to me when they certainly must expect 90% of people to install it "dot-to-dot." That's why I wondered if your dial-indicator was giving you a true .050"

Please go over it one more time. :( Sorry. Also compare intake to exhaust, to see if the LSA and centerlines are as stated.

I measured again, from a blank slate; relocated TDC and all that, and everything checks out as stated in the cam card. Intake and exhaust opening and closing, max lift, and duration. My book says that I can't use the lobe centerline method as described in the book to check my cam as it has asymmetrical lobes.

Since all the timing events check out, and have been measured at least ten times, is it safe to judge that the cam is degreed properly?

As to the inaccuracy of the dot-to-dot method, six seems like a lot to me as well...but I guess it's typical.


But if it's an aftermarket cam or you're serious about being certain the cam timing is accurate with the stock cam, you should use an indexed timing set -- and then use a dial indicator and a degree wheel to set the cam timing exactly where the cam card calls for it to be. Any other approach is just guessing. And even with brand new components, it's not uncommon that a 'dot to dot' aftermarket install will result in cam timing that's as much as 4-6 degrees off of what's called for on the cam card.

Bottom line is -- as long as you're willing to guess at the cam timing - then a dot to dot install is just fine. http://www.corral.net/forums/showpost.php?p=6638525&postcount=3

[coupe]

Hmm. I knew it was pretty normal for the Ford cams, but the crane? I bet alot of it has to do with the timing sets. Their "dot" might be slightly off, which propogates the error significantly by the time you put a degree wheel on.

I think you're safe with what you've done. Keep us up to date on the build and thanks for sharing the "cam-degreeing" info. Great technical thread.

[QWKSNKE]

Did I just pay $50 for 3 horsepower at 5900RPM? [/Rhetorical]



probably. I don't see it helping out significantly but as you stated you enjoying learning something new and that makes it worth it.

In my opinion this where the custom grind cams are a safe bet on the dot to dot install.

[SkurdalenFox]

As I said, the closest I could have gotten the cam without the adjustable timing set would have been about three degrees retard. Three degrees assumes a similar error rate with the hypothetical non-adjustable set.

I've been looking all over, and the data for my particular engine are not available. Nevertheless, here is something similar.

Six degrees advanced
RPM Pwr Trq
2000 135 354 14.67 77.2 228.2 16.7 179.3
2500 174 365 14.64 79.8 225.1 17.8 185.0
3000 215 377 14.61 82.3 228.1 19.0 191.0
3500 259 388 14.57 85.8 230.9 20.3 196.8
4000 299 393 14.51 88.1 232.8 21.7 199.1
4500 338 394 14.45 89.5 234.8 23.1 199.7
5000 365 384 14.38 89.3 230.8 24.7 194.4
5500 379 362 14.31 87.7 220.7 26.3 183.4
6000 376 329 14.26 83.9 204.5 28.0 166.5

Six degrees retarded

RPM pwr Trq
2000 128 335 14.67 69.4 216.8 16.7 169.6
2500 163 342 14.65 72.0 212.0 17.8 173.4
3000 199 348 14.63 73.4 212.1 19.0 176.4
3500 242 363 14.59 77.3 216.9 20.3 183.7
4000 285 374 14.55 80.8 222.7 21.7 189.6
4500 327 382 14.49 83.5 228.3 23.1 193.6
5000 362 380 14.42 84.9 228.8 24.7 192.6
5500 388 370 14.35 85.4 225.0 26.3 187.5
6000 401 351 14.28 84.3 216.4 28.0 177.7

I have no idea if the effect is linear, but it seems to me that even three degrees retard would have a substantiative effect.

[SkurdalenFox]

To make a solid lifter, I disassembled the lifter to be used in that bore,
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k30/skurdalen/HCI27Apr2007003.jpg

Put the plunger in backwards,
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k30/skurdalen/HCI27Apr2007004.jpg

And put it back together
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k30/skurdalen/HCI27Apr2007005.jpg

I measured the length to the bottom of the cup where the pushrod sits, and the solid and stock lifters are within a few ten-thousandths of one another.

I marked the top of the valve stem with a sharpie.

I put the solid lifter in the bore and setup my adjustable pushrod, and then I tightened the rocker bolt to the point that I could just feel tension on the pushrod. I then used a torque wrench and tightened it to just a hair under 20ft lbs. It took about a half a turn to two thirds of a turn to get the wrench just shy of 20ft lbs.

I then turned the engine over 720 degrees. I removed the rocker arm and took a gander at the mark. I measured the rocker tip sweep at .0335” wide and perfectly centered.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k30/skurdalen/HCI28Apr2007001.jpg

I experimented with the length several times, but that’s about the narrowest and centered-est I could ever achieve. How does that seem? It can’t get any more centered, but maybe I can get a narrower sweep? What do you guys think?


What’s sort of funny is that the best pattern I got was achieved with this length of push-rod! It may be hard to tell from the picture, but it's exactly stock length.
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k30/skurdalen/HCI28Apr2007014.jpg

I also checked the exhaust valve on the number one cylinder. It gave identical results as the intake. Should I bother with the other valves?

[coupe]

Naa. You're good. But why the "homemade" solid lifter? That cam was meant for a Hydraulic. Are you going to experiment with a lash value? :think:

Keep in mind, you will lose a little torque with the solid lifter compared to the hydraulic. Why not leave it hydraulic? :shrug:

[Italian LX]

Naa. You're good. But why the "homemade" solid lifter? That cam was meant for a Hydraulic. Are you going to experiment with a lash value? :think:
I thought he was just doing that temporarily while he was measuring for the pushrod length. :shrug:

[SkurdalenFox]

Yeah, Italian is correct. Sorry Coupe, nothing so interesting.

Now I have a question about measuring P/V clearance. I have completed one measurement using the clay method and the above solid lifter. The problem is, my P/V clearance is off by an order of magnitude. There is only .015" on the intake. Previous owner of these heads who ran a similar cam, and my own numbers say that I should have a lot more clearance.

How should I configure the lifter to measure P/V clearance? I picked up some checking springs, and was going to put the lifter back to normal and measure with a dial indicator on the valve. Will this result in the proper and accurate measurements?

[SkurdalenFox]

On the advice of others who have played with solid lifters and found them inaccurate, I put the lifters back to normal, put some oil in them, and the push-rods. I then gave them a few pumps and dropped them in their bores.

I then tried a little bit different method of tightening the rockers.
I tightened them to zero lash, not by seeing if I could rotate the push-rod by hand, but I hand tightened the rocker bolt to the point where I could no longer rock the rocker off the valve stem or push-rod. I then put a torque wrench on, and in 3/4ths of a turn, the bolt was just shy of 20 ft lbs. I measured pre-load on the lifter at .033". I then turned the motor over 720 degrees while measuring P/V clearance with a checking spring in place of the real spring, and a dial indicator on the flat spot of the retainer just to the left of the valve stem. i.e. in line with the other valves, not above or below the valve stem.

The smallest amount of clearance measured by this method was .152" give or take a few thousandths. I also double checked the tip placement on the valve stem and it still was centered and narrow.

I also tried the above procedure with a slightly shorter than stock push-rod and got .161" of P/V clearance, but it took nearly a full turn to get 18-20 ft lbs. Pre-load was similar to stock length push-rod.

Sounds good huh? Well, if I have measured this way the first time, I probably would have just run the engine like that. I don't know what to believe now though...

That I don't really understand hydraulic lifters I suppose is part of the problem. When the motor is running, how deep will the plunger go? I can push it down another .03" by pushing down on the back of the rocker. Combine that with the existing pre-load and I guess that's the .06" of maximum pre-load. I don't really understand how the lifter remains constant or what prevents the lifter from pumping up and not collapsing at all. In the case of not collapsing, and as measured with the solid lifter, there would be almost no clearance. Should I just junk any concerns I have about the clearance measurements I had with the solid lifter and clay measurement, and run the engine how it is?

[coupe]

The oil in it acts as a VERY TIGHT spring, a cushion if you will. So don't think of the plunger as actually moving up and down, creating slack.

.030 lifter preload sounds great. I don't remember if you go a little more for higher RPM hydraulic cams or a little less. :think:

[SkurdalenFox]

The oil in it acts as a VERY TIGHT spring, a cushion if you will. So don't think of the plunger as actually moving up and down, creating slack.

.030 lifter preload sounds great. I don't remember if you go a little more for higher RPM hydraulic cams or a little less. :think:

Hm, here's where I am confused. In order to get any of the lifters to pre-load, I had to take the lifter apart, poke at the check valve in the bottom of the plunger, and drain the oil.

With the drained and compressible lifter, I can set the pre-load at .030". However, when I turn the engine over, even with a light checking spring on the valve, the lifter collapses another .030" or so. So, when the valve is at max lift, the push-rod seat is .060" below the retaining clip or .030" deeper than the pre-load. The collapsing lifter results in ~.16" of P/V clearance.

If the push-rod seats remain .030" below the retaining clips or more, I'll still have at least .11" of intake valve clearance. But where I am concerned is if the push-rod seat raises up to the retaining clip, there will be no P/V clearance as .030" * 1.6 = .048. .048 * 2 = .096. .16 - .096 = .064; not enough clearance.

So, when the motor is running, are the push-rod seats going to stay .030" below the retaining clips and never pump up higher than that because of the pre-load? When they lift the valve while the motor is running is the push-rod seat/cup going to compress another .030" for a total of .060" below the spring?

[coupe]

Regarding the lifters collapsing: what you need to do is find zero lash. Then give the lifters 1/2 turn as a good measure. That will get the preload close enough. With the 1/2 turn, it will be close enough to run (leave the valve covers loose) and then you can get a more accurate preload setting after they've pumped up. If, after they pump up in a few seconds of running, they are nice and smooth, like a sewing machine, then I would just go back and snug on the locks one more time then button it up...

BUT FIRST...You have the GT40s with that Emissions-legal Crane 444221 cam...there should be NO REASON for the valves to be too close to the crown...unless the cam is not where it needs to be!

You are at a point where the CLOSEST it can POSSIBLY be is .060-ish...and that's with a hydraulic lifter totally relaxing, which is not likely. I am pretty confident you are good as-is and will not hurt anything. What do the others think?

[SkurdalenFox]

Well, checked the cam out again. Then I measured with zero pre-load on the lifter, and zero lash on the rocker/pushrod and came up with the following for the intake clearance.

-5, .100
-2, .088
0, .085
2, .081
3, .077
4, .072
6, .075


Obviously, this assumes the worse case scenario of a fully pumped-up lifter. I was being rather conservative with the .06" I predicted before. I know you said that a fully pumped up lifter is not likely to occur Coupe, but I'm still nervous.

I'm assuming this cam was designed for un-milled heads, and a worse case scenario, fully pumped up lifter. These heads have been milled .020" so I guess it would make sense that they'd be .020" short on valve clearance.

So, what can I do? Thicker gaskets? Wouldn't this screw up the quench? I'd got a pair of .040" compressed thickness gaskets on there now. Should I get one of those piston notching tools and trim a bit off the piston?

[coupe]

I like trimming the piston idea. Hell, you could do it with a dremel and some patience... just would require claying each one and finding where to remove a tiny amount of material. What pistons again? Removing a small spot a few-thousandths shouldn't hurt. Seen it before.

I agree, the .020 milling of the head is what's giving this clearance.

[SkurdalenFox]

Short short-block, '93 hypereutectic pistons.

Before I even think about going MacGuyver, I'm going to try and get my hands on some of those Isky piston notching tools.

[SkurdalenFox]

Well, I finally got a set of Isky piston notching tools, and I’m ready start trimming the pistons.

To recap, this was the clearance I had on the intake valve for cylinder one.

-5, .100
-2, .088
0, .085
2, .081
3, .077
4, .072
6, .075

Well, today I also started checking the other pistons. Much to my surprise, piston two had .079” of clearance! I got pretty freaked out, and measured piston one again. I came up with the same numbers as before with the tightest clearance again as .072”. In something of a panic, I checked piston three and I got .0745”. After that number I was a little less freaked out. After measuring all the pistons, I got numbers from .081” to .072”. Still, I’m left wondering if this is normal or not. Can all the tolerances on everything in the rotating and reciprocating really add up to this much or is it more likely something is amiss?

Also, when setting up to measure P/V clearance with a dial indicator – solid lifter, zero lash on the base circle, but not tightened – the rocker arm raises up a bit. I assume this is supposed to occur because if it didn’t, there would be no pre-load on a compressible lifter. My question is, am I supposed to subtract the amount of rocker arm lift/pre-load on my P/V clearance numbers?

Finally, how much do you guys think I should buzz off the top of the pistons? I guess I have two options. I could either cut the same amount off each piston; something like .008” so they all definitely would have clearance. Alternatively, I could cut them all down so that they have equal clearance. z.B., .001” off piston two and leave piston seven (.081”) alone.

[QWKSNKE]

off topic.

Why did you disappear with "Pirate jenny" :D

[SkurdalenFox]

cuz, except for Mack the Knife, it sucks for people here in SoHo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4ppMP48EqQ

[QWKSNKE]

cuz, except for Mack the Knife, it sucks for people here in SoHo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4ppMP48EqQ

Where did you find out about that play?

[SkurdalenFox]

I did some cutting!

Here is what I got from Ed Iskenderian.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k30/skurdalen/HCI19MaiApr2007-Pistoncutting015.jpg

That’s two cutting heads and one pilot. I got a two inch and a one and five eighths cutting head as one should use a slightly larger cutter than the valve.

Basically, the cutting head goes on the pilot, and that fits into the cylinder head like a valve. You plop the head on, and spin the pilot by hand. I used a quarter inch drive ratchet.

Here’s what the tool looks like installed in the head and ready to go.
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k30/skurdalen/HCI19MaiApr2007-Pistoncutting002.jpg

Mmmm.
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k30/skurdalen/668px-Ruffles_ketchup.jpg


To keep the shavings from getting between the piston and the cylinder wall, I put some clay around the valve pocket that will be cut.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k30/skurdalen/HCI19MaiApr2007-Pistoncutting009.jpg

Tada,
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k30/skurdalen/HCI19MaiApr2007-Pistoncutting008.jpg

I opened the pocket from 1.4x” to 1.5x”. I ended up splitting the difference between the two options I wondered about above. I cut roughly the same amount off each, and got roughly the same clearance amongst all the pistons. For all eight intake valves I’ve clearance numbers from .094” to .098”. Not bad eh?

I WAS satisfied with those clearance numbers until I checked the CompCams website, and found them to recommend .1” clearance on the intake and .125” on the exhaust. Everywhere else I have seen the specs, it was always .080” intake and .100” exhaust. At this point, I don’t really care what the CompCams people say. I don’t really plan on adding any larger valve-ed heads, a more radical cam, or revving very high, so I think I should be fine with these clearances.

Next is the exhaust side…

[QWKSNKE]

LOL at the potato chips...

That's a pretty cool tool. Is the tool to aggressive to use with a cordless drill?

[SkurdalenFox]

The cutter is drawn into the material as it is rotated, and sloughs off material very quickly. I achieved my clearance goals with about six revolutions, and no downward force on the tool other than the weight of the tool and my hand. Even if the pistons were without an eyebrow, you could cut an eyebrow in just a couple minutes by hand. IMO using a drill would be courting a hole in a piston.

[SkurdalenFox]

So is this black metal bar on the back of the intake a suitable point to lift the engine and transmission?
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k30/skurdalen/HCI19Apr2007008.jpg

[QWKSNKE]

get rid of that bar. its a pain in the ass to deal with if you need to remove the intake while the engine is in the car.

[coupe]

I haven't seen that bar in years. Keep it, it might be a commodity someday for restorers :p .

But yes, it would be okay for a lifting point. Nice project. You are definitely meticulous.

[Italian LX]

I haven't seen that bar in years. Keep it, it might be a commodity someday for restorers :p .
I've got two of them in my collection. :D

[coupe]

:lol: like baseball cards.

[Italian LX]

:lol: like baseball cards.
:yup:

I even have an ID tag off a '93 Cobra transmission... that should be worth some money when Lee decides to turn his SVT into a peice of furniture. :popcorn:


Also, my stock airbox and silencer are in my parents' attic. :D

[QWKSNKE]

I've got two of them in my collection. :D

Got one at my house now that i will give you this weekend.

Took it off Bandit's car this weekend and wasn't about to put it back on

[SkurdalenFox]

Disaster!

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k30/skurdalen/HCI26MaiApr2007-assemblyanddisaster.jpg

When lining up an engine and transmission, and you ask your friend on the other side of the trans, “ya got it lined up over there?” and he answers back, “almost…I just need some more leverage.” Strike your friend in the head with wrench.


I got it all fixed up though. My cousin did the welding. We put a plate on the front to keep it from warping.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k30/skurdalen/HCI27MaiApr2007-assemblyanddisaster.jpg


http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k30/skurdalen/HCI27MaiApr2007-assemblyanddisas-1.jpg


Till next weekend…

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k30/skurdalen/HCI28MaiApr2007-liftitin004.jpg

[coupe]

Do anything to that AOD? The converter looks stock.. :shrug: Don't install it if it's stock! Not after all that work!

And that closest converter/flexplate stud looks bent.

[SkurdalenFox]

I added a Baumann shift kit set to medium, and the shift points raised a few hundred RPM. New filter too. The trans only has about 20k on a rebuild.

Yeah, that's the stock converter. I know, everyone says, "it's gonna suck with the stock converter." However, I really don't have the money for a high quality converter. Tuition for school looks scarier every day...

Even if I did have the disposable money, it's hard to justify spending $800 on an AOD when the car is just a cruiser/DD. That much would add over 60% to the cost of this project. The converters in the $300-$400 range scare me. I've read too many horror stories of B&M (Broke and Mangled) and the like coming apart. I need reliability as I'm only taking this one car to school.

Next year...well, I'll either add gears, or maybe a new converter. Hell, I'll may just throw a manual in there or something. Bottom line; I want to see how the car performs before I spend any more serious money.

I dunno... maybe I'll hate myself when I'm pulling the trans in a couple weeks...

The stud is not bent, it's just the picture.

[coupe]

I can probably find you a converter in your price range that's virtually indestructable. I have a contact that does OE stuff but makes his own performance converters on the side. Let me know if interested (anyone) and I'll get a price. Anti-ballon plate, furnace brazed, etc...all the best stuff.

[QWKSNKE]

of B&M (Broke and Mangled) and the like coming apart. .

:rofl:

I figured with the cam you installed a converter would be a requirement

[SkurdalenFox]

24 lbs. or 30 lbs.?

I was planning to run 24 lbs. just because that seemed reasonable. However, I checked with the previous owner of these heads, he ran a nearly identical combination of parts except that I have a ported lower GT-40 style intake while his was untouched, and I have the Crane 2030 whereas he ran the Ford B cam. Also, he had 10-1 compression while I'm going to have something around 9.6-1.

He ran 30 lbs. injectors as he found that the 24 lbs. went static on him. Although, he was running fuel pressure at #39 to get a good spray pattern.

P.O. made 330 some rwhp through a T5 on his combination.

Normally, I'd just go for the 30 lbs. but I'm concerned about drive-ability, idle, part throttle and so forth.

I'll be using a PMAS meter.

[Italian LX]

He ran 30 lbs. injectors as he found that the 24 lbs. went static on him. Although, he was running fuel pressure at #39 to get a good spray pattern.

P.O. made 330 some rwhp through a T5 on his combination.
I would have to call BS on that based on my personal experience.

I ran 19# injectors all the up to 278rwhp. They were close to maxed out so I went up to 24# units. An N/A 302 shouldn't require anything bigger than that.

Hell, I'm running 36# injectors on my 418w and see a max duty cycle of only 65%.

[QWKSNKE]

I agree with Italian, that camshaft should do well with 24# squirters.

I am running 30's on mine because that is what my cam and whatever intake I upgrade to require

[SkurdalenFox]

Bah, lazy question, figured it out.

[coupe]

Will have converter infor for you hopefully today...tomorrow latest..Getting a quote on it in both lockup and non-lockup form. 2500-2600 stall. Anti-baloon plate (for N20). all the bells and whistles. This is my first price from this source, so we'll see how good it is. I won't make money on this one...this time. :D

[SkurdalenFox]

Well boys, it runs.

I primed the hell out of it; I spun the motor a few degrees, ran the drill about 45 secs to a minute, then spun it a few more degrees and hit the drill again - two revolutions of that. I kept the LH valve cover off, and watched to make sure oil came up through all the push-rods.

I then installed the distributer, turned the key to RUN about six times to fill the lines. Fingers crossed, I then turned it to START.

It fired right up - whoomp, whoomp, whoomp... rough but steady, and no bad noises. I don't have any sort of air intake tubes before the MAFS yet - gotta finish sanding off the chrome on that tube and paint it - so I only ran it for about 35 seconds.

I did rev it up to about 4k - no piston valve interference yet
I'll keep my fingers crossed for the first time I hit 5k+

After I get my intake stuff finished, set the idle and all that - I'll have to go around, check for and fix leaks...then it should be ready for a blast on the high-way.

I'll take it around the block a few times and change the oil/filter.

Don't want to jinx it, but it all seems pretty good so far!!

Many, many, many thanks everyone - in particular Coupe. Thanks for all the tech, and if nothing else allowing me a place to think aloud so I could better sort out all this stuff. I've never really done any thing this in depth before, so the board really has been a big help. Thanks again!

[QWKSNKE]

Congrats Jim :nice:

[coupe]

No problem Jim. Didn't think I helped that much but glad it sounds good and revs clean. You are the most detail-oriented person I've ever seen tackle that job. That's a good thing.

[SkurdalenFox]

Well, I took the car out for a little drive this evening. Started it up, idles at ~800RPM, everything thing is nice and smooth...

I cruised around for about 15 minutes, and got the motor all warmed up for the first time. Then, it started smoking - I pulled over opened the hood, and to my relief it was just one of the heater hoses going to the heater core that was leaking a bit of coolant onto the header. NBD. So, I headed home.

As I pulled into the driveway, I noticed a ticking noise. I popped the hood, and sure enough tick, tick, tick - three ticks every second or so. It is just audible with the hood closed, and sounds like it's coming from the RH side.

I removed the RH valve cover, and everything looked okay, so I readjusted the rocker arms for that side. I fired it back up with no RH VC, and it still ticks. The car still seems to run just fine - it just ticks. the frequency is directly related to the RPM - higher RPM, the more ticks per second. They don't get any louder or quieter with RPM changes.

Any body got any ideas about the source? Or how I can isolate which cylinder(s) house the cause?

I tried running the motor with my finger tips on the rocker arms to see if I could feel the source but they all felt the same.

[QWKSNKE]

Run the car for a while longer. It is either going to a exhaust leak (more than likely it is) or a lifter that is having a priming issue. A lot of times when an engine is first put together you will hear little noises while everything is getting settled in.

Run it longer and see if it goes away or gets louder where you can track the source down

[coupe]

re-tighten the header bolts. ;)

[SkurdalenFox]

I re-adjusted the rocker arms again, and noticed something.

On cylinder two and four's intake valves, after the rockers are adjusted, I can still push the pushrod side of the rocker down about another .030. [Pre-load is also .030"]

While these two lifters collapse easily, the rest are still rock hard. The non-collapsing rockers do pre-load properly.

So, I'm thinking that the noise is the slapping around of the push-rod/rocker/lifter on Intake #2 and #4. Does that make sense, and uhm, how can I fix that? Would putting some oil down the push-rod help/hurt?

These are new FRPP lifters. They had some waxy stuff all over them when I got them, so I cleaned 'em with Simple Green.

Oil is coming up through all the push-rods and pours out over the rockers. Although, #3 and #4 gush madly, while #1 and #2 just sort of ooze. The volume of oil does not correspond to the lifters that collapse easily.

[coupe]

Drive it some...unless it is a HORRIBLE noise. Like Lee said, things might settle down. The new lifters can be noisy for just a little while, but usually not very long. I still think you have a header leak making the ticking noise. It shouldnt be easy to push the hydraulic plunger down on new lifters, especially after they've pumped up.

[QWKSNKE]

Drive it some...unless it is a HORRIBLE noise. Like Lee said, things might settle down. The new lifters can be noisy for just a little while, but usually not very long. I still think you have a header leak making the ticking noise. It shouldnt be easy to push the hydraulic plunger down on new lifters, especially after they've pumped up.

yep. I had the problem on one of my engine builds. It took several miles of driving to get the lifters to prime up

[SkurdalenFox]

yep. I had the problem on one of my engine builds. It took several miles of driving to get the lifters to prime up

The sound isn't horrible, just sort of sounds like my old F-150 did on cold mornings :)

I actually just went cruising around a bit and it seems to have softened considerably.

I'm sure the exhaust is contributing to it somewhat as well. I can feel some exhaust coming out at the headers.

***EDIT***

JESUS F'ING CHRIST!!! I finally got brave enough to floor the throttle.... WOW! JUST WOW!! I'm actually a bit scared of the car. South of about 2.5k it's pretty normal, but when it hits 3k it turns into an animal! OMG I'm very pleased. wow.

I have it set to shift 1-2 at 5.5k, and 2-3 at 5.2k to match the cam/intake/heads - that's a safe RPM for the bottom end right?

I'll tighten up the exhaust when it cools down, and not worry too much about the ticking for a while.

[QWKSNKE]

I have it set to shift 1-2 at 5.5k, and 2-3 at 5.2k to match the cam/intake/heads - that's a safe RPM for the bottom end right?

.


LOL. yeah that's very safe

[CrazyInBlack]

The sound isn't horrible, just sort of sounds like my old F-150 did on cold mornings :)

I actually just went cruising around a bit and it seems to have softened considerably.

I'm sure the exhaust is contributing to it somewhat as well. I can feel some exhaust coming out at the headers.

***EDIT***

JESUS F'ING CHRIST!!! I finally got brave enough to floor the throttle.... WOW! JUST WOW!! I'm actually a bit scared of the car. South of about 2.5k it's pretty normal, but when it hits 3k it turns into an animal! OMG I'm very pleased. wow.

I have it set to shift 1-2 at 5.5k, and 2-3 at 5.2k to match the cam/intake/heads - that's a safe RPM for the bottom end right?

I'll tighten up the exhaust when it cools down, and not worry too much about the ticking for a while.

sounds like a good time :banana2:

[SkurdalenFox]

Well, I put about 20 miles on the car, and it's still ticking. It's not horrible, but very irksome.

There is defiantly not an exhaust leak contributing any longer. I tightened everything up, and it's sealed shut.

The whole business of being able to compress a couple of lifters bothers me. I ran the motor without a valve cover, and immediately after I shut it off, I checked the lifters again. I can still push down a couple when they are on the base circle of the cam - like I said, they'll compress ~.030". Other lifters are rock hard when checked on the base circle of the cam. The same lifters are soft every time.


What could be causing them to not pump up? Oil pressure is good.

[QWKSNKE]

Are you still using stock rocker arms?

[SkurdalenFox]

No, FRPP 1.6 pedestal roller rockers, FRPP stock length pushrods, FRPP lifters. The only thing I reused was the little channels in which the pedestals sit.

I had to shim a few of the rockers. Nothing major. One or two took the thick shim (can't recall the size, too early in the morning) but those don't seem to the be noise makers. Three or four needed the thin shim. All rocker assemblies have the same pre-load, right about .030" and they all tightened down to 20 ft. lbs. in 3/4ths of a turn.

[QWKSNKE]

I am surprised that you had to shim the rockers

[SkurdalenFox]

Well, without a shim, the #2 intake took about one and quarter turn to get to 20 ft. lbs. I could still push the lifter down quite far.

The lifters are getting oil; the pushrods are full when I pull them out. Although, #3 and #4 seem to be getting more oil, at least in the 30 seconds or so I run it without the VC. But, the oil seems to move back to front, #4E gets oil, then #4I... so I don't know if oil is the problem. Is that the way it is supplied to the lifters, from the back of the motor to the front?

I'm at a loss as to what is going on. Qwksnke, earlier you mentioned a lifter priming issue, could that be what is causing this? Maybe the lifters aren't getting enough oil? or maybe they aren't keeping it inside for some reason?

I really don't know what I should do at this point.

[SkurdalenFox]

I pulled off the intake to have a look-see at the lifters...

I yanked out the the #2I, and sure enough I could depress it with my finger tip. For some reason it wasn't locking up. I took the bastard's retaining clip out, push the plunger down, and it shot right up to the top, and was locked there... WTF?

So, I pulled the cup and plunger out and found this,
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k30/skurdalen/P1010004.jpg

This is the little stamped bit that holds in the check ball. One of the three tabs is not locked in. It must be not sealing in the oil. I can't believe I didn't notice this. :nono: Nothing like a stupid little thing like that to make ya feel like a complete moron. ugh.

[QWKSNKE]

Doesn't make you a moron. That is something rare and easily overlooked

[coupe]

What caused it? It was a new set of lifters, wasn't it?

[SkurdalenFox]

What caused it? It was a new set of lifters, wasn't it?

Oh, I'm the cause I'm sure. :jester:

I cleaned them to remove any dust, wax, crud et cetera. I then disassembled them to get the solvent out. To get the plunger back down again, I had to poke at the check ball. I'm sure I dislodged the cap a bit when I was doing that.

Now I just have to wait for new intake gaskets - all the local places are out! Counter guy said, "Sorry, we've been selling a lot of those lately, it'll be a few days."

[QWKSNKE]

Oh, I'm the cause I'm sure. :jester:

I cleaned them to remove any dust, wax, crud et cetera. I then disassembled them to get the solvent out. To get the plunger back down again, I had to poke at the check ball. I'm sure I dislodged the cap a bit when I was doing that.

."

:slap: Nevermind, I retract my post

[SkurdalenFox]

Counter guy, "Sorry, we don't have any [of the gaskets] in stock. We'll have to order them.

Me, "Yeah okay, order 'em."

Counter guy, "It'll be a few days because even our warehouse is out of stock."

Me, "Uh, okay."

Counter guy, "Okay, well, I can have them sent to you. It may be a bit faster."

Me, "yeah, that's fine."


Tracking Number:
Type: Package
Status: In Transit
Service Type: GROUND

Package Progress
Location Date Local Time Description
ANAHEIM,
CA, US 06/25/2007 7:26 P.M. ORIGIN SCAN

Tracking results provided by UPS: 06/28/2007 1:02 P.M. EST (USA)

:banghead:

[coupe]

Geez. I could have gone down to SECO and had them mailed to you by now. :D

Wait...let me get this straight...you're not having any luck finding a gasket for a mustang in friggin DEARBORN, MICHIGAN!?! :eek:

[Italian LX]

Ironic... isn't it? :lol:

[SkurdalenFox]

Well, it's a bit more particular than a Mustang gasket, but still... it's getting ridiculous.

This is the culprit - FELPRO-MS95952,

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k30/skurdalen/fel-ms95952_w.jpg

If it doesn't LEAVE by the end of the day, I'm just going to order it from Summit.

[SkurdalenFox]

NO MORE TICKING!!! woohoooo!!!

Last night, about 9:30pm, I just said, "screw it," and re-used the old gaskets. The gaskets looked fine; The only problem was that the rubber end pieces had a silicon on them. I had to trim that away with a razor.

Anyhow, when I first started it up, it was ticking like a mother, so I was pretty upset. After about 45 seconds of idling, it cleared up and was running nice and smooth. I'm much happier now.

I can't take it out on the road just yet because my timing light seems to be broken.

[Italian LX]

The only problem was that the rubber end pieces had a silicon on them. I had to trim that away with a razor.
Those blue end pieces work well when they are brand new, but I tried to reuse them once and they seemed to have swollen up and wouldn't sit properly.

FWIW, the good Fel-Pro gaskets only come with the cork end pieces so I never use anything on the ends anymore other than some black RTV.

[SkurdalenFox]

Hm. The end pieces looked exactly the same - other than the RTV - when I pulled 'em off. But, they only had like 20 miles on them.

What are the good gaskets, and how are they better?

[CrazyInBlack]

glad it quieted down for you, that thing should be a blast to drive

[SkurdalenFox]

Thanks. I know it's pretty docile compared to others' rides, but I'm having fun :)

[SkurdalenFox]

I meant to post this earlier, but I was busy and forgot.

http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k30/skurdalen/pullyouroil.jpg

It’s just a little illustrative and quantitative evidence that it’s a good idea to change oil promptly after major engine work.

My Dad is caring for the Mustang now and promised an oil change between 1,500 and 2k. I’m interested to see the silicon and other wear numbers come down.

[Craig K.]

Concerning the use of the manifold to valve seals (blue pieces or cork) I have not used these for years.

It is interesting to see what chemicals go up / down with the oil break down.

I always cheange the oil after 30-45 minutes, then again after 1500 miles, and again after another 1500, it may cost a bit, but to me it is cheap insurance.

In my new OEM cars, I always have done 500, 1500, 1500.

[CrazyInBlack]

any updates?

[SkurdalenFox]

No news is good news, right?

3000+ miles since the operation, and it's been flawless. That's what I've been told anyhow.